Class D amp with the most slam/punch

[agedhorse]

I am the OP of this thread….and I’d have to agree with statement. I acquired a Thunderfunk TFB550. It was delivered yesterday. There is no comparison to the way the notes are delivered from this 500 watt when compared to my TH500. It’s just night and day. And while the tone might be different due to dissimilar voiced preamps, again, it’s the way the notes are delivered that is the takeaway. I think you’re onto something about needing lots of power from a class d amp to get that same effect from an a/b amp.

That's all part of the design intent, mostly (like 99%) within the preamp. Not just tone, but attach and texture elements too. It's unrelated to class AB versus class D IME.

 

[Auer]

I feel were in a class D Wattage war as far as marketing goes, and I'll gladly sit this one out.

 

[DJ Bebop]

CDs vs Vinyl

 

[agedhorse]

I feel were in a class D Wattage war as far as marketing goes, and I'll gladly sit this one out.

Has nothing to do with marketing and everything to do with their technologies.

I designed successful class AB lead sled amps long before designing class D amps, both in the pro audio and bass markets.

Here's an example of one of my class AB amps, for those who think I only understand class D technology:

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[edervjo]

The power amp’s sensitivity changed between the first two and both are quite different topology. The CA-9 is actually one of the amps that has an “enhancement” that affects the low frequency response of the amp. This was a byproduct of another function, and ultimately didn’t continue in the following models as the line evolved.

Also, there are differences in the internal high pass filtering as amp manufacturers began to recognize the benefits.

Perception is a tricky thing, it’s not always for the reasons you assume them to be. That’s why good designers use a combination of double-blind testing and measurements to verify cause and effect.

I knew you would have an answer, thanks, I truly appreciate your insights.

 

[DJ Bebop]

Has nothing to do with marketing and everything to do with their technologies.

I designed successful class AB lead sled amps long before designing class D amps, both in the pro audio and bass markets.

Here's an example of one of my class AB amps, for those who think I only understand class D technology:

View attachment 5252472
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[Marko 1]

View attachment 5252554

Mesa 400+

 

[Auer]

Has nothing to do with marketing and everything to do with their technologies.

I designed successful class AB lead sled amps long before designing class D amps, both in the pro audio and bass markets.

Here's an example of one of my class AB amps, for those who think I only understand class D technology:

View attachment 5252472
[Invalid or Expired Link Removed]

I was not really addressing anyone in particular.

 

[hennessybass]

Yes, it used to be that the HPF was set below 20Hz but later amps evolved with higher frequencies and more importantly steeper slopes. QSC introduced 18dB/octave dipswitch selector HPF frequencies of 30Hz and 50Hz about 30 years ago, it took a while for the rest to catch on but eventually they all did.

Would you say that this move towards higher and steeper HPFs has corresponded with improvements in speaker design? Specifically that modern speakers / cabs are able to produce more and bigger low end.

In my very unscientific observation it seems that bands who used to gig with a couple of 15" mains for the PA now gig with a couple of mains and a couple of subs.
Or that over the past 10-15 years on TB bass players started making a move to bass cabs that are able to produce a lot more low end, and then shortly after everyone started adding HPFs to their rigs.

 

[hennessybass]

I am the OP of this thread….and I’d have to agree with statement. I acquired a Thunderfunk TFB550. It was delivered yesterday. There is no comparison to the way the notes are delivered from this 500 watt when compared to my TH500. It’s just night and day. And while the tone might be different due to dissimilar voiced preamps, again, it’s the way the notes are delivered that is the takeaway. I think you’re onto something about needing lots of power from a class d amp to get that same effect from an a/b amp.

Saw your post in the Berg club. Sick rig.
The TFB550 - TFB800, and AMP BH420 too - are all wonderful amps IME. The way the notes are delivered is right. They just sound good, and they sound great in a band mix.
When I think about my top three bass tone experiences, The TFB was one of them. Streamliner and Fender TBP-1 preamp were the other two. Three gigs - years ago - that I remember very distinctly.

 

[Drredplate]

Would you say that this move towards higher and steeper HPFs has corresponded with improvements in speaker design? Specifically that modern speakers / cabs are able to produce more and bigger low end.

In my very unscientific observation it seems that bands who used to gig with a couple of 15" mains for the PA now gig with a couple of mains and a couple of subs.
Or that over the past 10-15 years on TB bass players started making a move to bass cabs that are able to produce a lot more low end, and then shortly after everyone started adding HPFs to their rigs.

You would first need to define improvement. Drivers have certainly improved. Cabs have got smaller and lighter which to some is an improvement
Bass cabs are a monument to compromise
So I would need to be convinced that modern small lightweight cabs have more low end than larger heavier cabs using modern drivers.
The good thing is these days you get to choose the compromise
I have cabs that are a two man lift and a 100watt valve head driving these can keep up with a loud drummer no problem.
To some this would not be a workable rig in terms of logistics

 

[agedhorse]

Would you say that this move towards higher and steeper HPFs has corresponded with improvements in speaker design? Specifically that modern speakers / cabs are able to produce more and bigger low end.

In my very unscientific observation it seems that bands who used to gig with a couple of 15" mains for the PA now gig with a couple of mains and a couple of subs.
Or that over the past 10-15 years on TB bass players started making a move to bass cabs that are able to produce a lot more low end, and then shortly after everyone started adding HPFs to their rigs.

Yes, HPF's really improved performance and allowed sloppy speaker designs to perform better and excellent speaker designs to shine. By eliminating much of the non-musical content below the fundamental is a no brainer, and what's now being discovered by players is that not all of the lowest fundamentals, especially of a 5 string, are always beneficial.

The push to more extended low end was to avoid the additional LF distortion that compact speakers were bringing to the table, but in t he end it brought along with it more LF "mud" that didn't help project what fit well into the band mix. First, it was discovered that high passing these extended LF cabinets cleaned them up, then when this was applied to the compact cabinets the result was more than acceptable. My first real push into integrating the HPF with the compact (or sub-compact in this case) cabinet was the Shuttle 3.0-8T and 3.0-10T. These are tiny cabinets backed by a relatively large amp, and while they don't have extended LF, the LF that they do have is relatively clean and "surprisingly good". This approach had been used in pro audio for at least 10 years before this, Meyer and Renkus Heinz used this along with some sliding up and down of the HPF with respect to power levels (a dynamic HPF based on VCF topology).

 

[agedhorse]

You would first need to define improvement. Drivers have certainly improved. Cabs have got smaller and lighter which to some is an improvement
Bass cabs are a monument to compromise
So I would need to be convinced that modern small lightweight cabs have more low end than larger heavier cabs using modern drivers.
The good thing is these days you get to choose the compromise
I have cabs that are a two man lift and a 100watt valve head driving these can keep up with a loud drummer no problem.
To some this would not be a workable rig in terms of logistics

They may have more usable low end, not necessarily more or less. Weight in this case doesn't matter, weight is not in the performance equations.

 

[willsellout]

Has nothing to do with marketing and everything to do with their technologies.

I designed successful class AB lead sled amps long before designing class D amps, both in the pro audio and bass markets.

Here's an example of one of my class AB amps, for those who think I only understand class D technology:

View attachment 5252472
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Who would possibly think that? Also that amp slammed hard. I’m curious though if it’s all in the preamp why haven’t manufacturers made anything that can hit as hard as that GBE1200 or the Aguilar DB751?

I have no qualifications to doubt yours obviously but man I have never heard an amp hit harder than the Aggie. It’s been a long time but I’d guess that GBE1200 would be in a similar class. I’ve tried many of the most popular class D heads and none of them even come close. This is an honest question posed in good faith. I’m honestly curious. If I had to guess I’d imagine that there aren’t that many people who would need that kind of power and therefore not that much money in it.

 

[agedhorse]

Who would possibly think that? Also that amp slammed hard. I’m curious though if it’s all in the preamp why haven’t manufacturers made anything that can hit as hard as that GBE1200 or the Aguilar DB751?

I have no qualifications to doubt yours obviously but man I have never heard an amp hit harder than the Aggie. It’s been a long time but I’d guess that GBE1200 would be in a similar class. I’ve tried many of the most popular class D heads and none of them even come close. This is an honest question posed in good faith. I’m honestly curious. If I had to guess I’d imagine that there aren’t that many people who would need that kind of power and therefore not that much money in it.

The ShuttleMax 9.0/12.0 was the follow-up to the GBE-1200, the voicing was tailored intentionally for a little greater articulation. The low end is about the same but the LF boost filters and HPF’s are slightly different by design. In double-blind testing, the ShuttleMax was the preferred voicing and it was a development team choice not just one person’s preference.

 

[hennessybass]

My first real push into integrating the HPF with the compact (or sub-compact in this case) cabinet was the Shuttle 3.0-8T and 3.0-10T.

I remember playing one of the combos (the 10" cab) at the Bass Emporium in Austin when they first came onto the market.

WAY to small for what I was doing at the time, but I remember how good it sounded. I was probably using a Goliath III and Amp BH420 at the time - in a loud band.

 

[willsellout]

The ShuttleMax 9.0/12.0 was the follow-up to the GBE-1200, the voicing was tailored intentionally for a little greater articulation. The low end is about the same but the LF boost filters and HPF’s are slightly different by design. In double-blind testing, the ShuttleMax was the preferred voicing and it was a development team choice not just one person’s preference.

Oh of course. I never figured it was a one man job, especially with your pedigree. Figured there is lots of testing across the board before something comes to market. I owned the shuttle max 12.0 and it was a killer head. I’m actually a fan of everything you’ve been involved with. I just haven’t had a class D head with the immediate chest thump or apparent endless headroom that the DB751 has. I remember the GBE1200 was similar. Both the GBE1200 and the DB751 had this massive quality to them. I realize my needs are not what 99% of people need or want though. Most people can get more than they need with most modern class d heads. I appreciate your response. I’m always interested in this type of stuff.

 

[agedhorse]

Oh of course. I never figured it was a one man job, especially with your pedigree. Figured there is lots of testing across the board before something comes to market. I owned the shuttle max 12.0 and it was a killer head. I’m actually a fan of everything you’ve been involved with. I just haven’t had a class D head with the immediate chest thump or apparent endless headroom that the DB751 has. I remember the GBE1200 was similar. Both the GBE1200 and the DB751 had this massive quality to them. I realize my needs are not what 99% of people need or want though. Most people can get more than they need with most modern class d heads. I appreciate your response. I’m always interested in this type of stuff.

You also have to remember that this amp did about 600 watts into 8 ohms and over 1000 watts RMS into 4 ohms which is more than any of the class D amps we ever offered. We found that there were enough players that didn't have good judgement that speakers got the snot driven out of them which is why we settled on the 900 watt (maximum) platform and the more advanced output dynamics control which reduced speaker damage by about 80%. Yes, too much power is a very real thing when you don't have good judgement.

 

[willsellout]

You also have to remember that this amp did about 600 watts into 8 ohms and over 1000 watts RMS into 4 ohms which is more than any of the class D amps we ever offered. We found that there were enough players that didn't have good judgement that speakers got the snot driven out of them which is why we settled on the 900 watt (maximum) platform and the more advanced output dynamics control which reduced speaker damage by about 80%. Yes, too much power is a very real thing when you don't have good judgement.

You would have a field day with some of the Facebook groups I’m a part of LOL.

 

[agedhorse]

You would have a field day with some of the Facebook groups I’m a part of LOL.

Which is why i don't hang out on any