Class D amp with the most slam/punch

[gtirard]

You gave me GAS, so I picked up a previously loved DB751 .

My observations, with Bright and Deep off:
1. Yep it's heavy, and even worse, it's awkward to lift in the Aguilar headcase.
2. I was surprised by the nice vocal/singing mids. This is a quality I felt the DB750 lacked. In fact, I did not find the DB750 particularly musical, but I was impressed by the sense of massive power it presents. However, the word that came to mind was "Industrial," rather than "musical." I found the DB750 difficult to hear my bass in the mix without everyone complaining that I was way too loud!
3. At low volume, the DB751 lows are too big IMHO. As the Master is cranked up, the sound gets a bit more midrangy. So IMHO, it needs a certain amount of volume to balance out the tone. This could be a problem.
4. I played the DB751 through a pair of Genz Benz GB1288T Uber Quads. At a certain volume, I would say the tone is about as close to playing through a set off studio monitors as any rig I can remember. This is seems to be really good amp/cab pairing.

I also played my Aguilar DB359 and my Jule Monique 700. The DB359 is brighter and the lows are similar, but not quite as focused and controlled. I believe the basic tone of the DB359 is closer to the DB750, so the Mid control boosts 400hz rather than 800hz. I think the DB359 is probably a bit mid-scooped around 800hz. When pushed to the edge the DB359 also gets a sort of a singy quality, but it's not vocal like the DB751.

The Monique actually sounds a lot more like the DB751 than I expected. I would say they cover some similar ground, but don't sound or respond exactly alike. I had the Monique setup for a fairly lean low end. I turned the bass control up a few degrees, and would definitely say it had some Aguilar-style heft and slam coming on. IMHO, very nice!

I think the tonal balance of the DB751 changes more as the volume goes up. The Monique's tonal balance also seems to change, but my impression is not as much. As the volume is increased, there is point where both have similar levels of heft and slam.

My impression is the Monique is a bit more compressed, but this could be the way I have it dialed in.

I didn't make any attempt to compare max volume. I have pushed the Monique to clipping through the Uber Quads, and it get's way louder than I would ever need. I did turn the DB751 up quite a bit...and can confirm it sounds great and it's way louder than I would ever need.

Keep in mind I got the DB751 today. I have played it three times and played the Monique and DB359 once. So I don't claim my impressions are 100% accurate.

It would be amazing if you could capture NAM amp models from your DB751 and other iconic tube amps from your personal collection! It would enable us to "try" them (or their virtual clones) in our DAWs…

Although NAM is free and Open Source, the library is full of guitar amps, but we haven't got a lot of bass amps to play with

 

[Lammchop93]

It would be amazing if you could capture NAM amp models from your DB751 and other iconic tube amps from your personal collection! It would enable us to "try" them (or their virtual clones) in our DAWs…

Although NAM is free and Open Source, the library is full of guitar amps, but we haven't got a lot of bass amps to play with

whew, those instructions are not clear at all. I work in data and use github/python occasionally and that is a confusing mess on how to capture an amp.

Do you have an easy way to describe how to capture amps?

 

[Arthur U. Poon]

Again, I am in wonder at the responses, and info on this thread. From what I can glean from all this, is that class D is underwhelming in direct watt for watt comparisons to A/B amps, and that a good pre-amp can mask some of the tone and "punch" from these power deficiencies. If one is to run a class D, at least double to triple your power to compete with your lead sled. Got that.
As for those that say there is no sonic difference in power amp classes......let's say we experience things differently. My Peavey CS-800 was good, until I plugged in my Crown CT-400, which was better, until I plugged in my Crest CA9, which is awesome. Every step, the bass got a bit tighter, deeper and more defined, all at the same volumes. I have used the same pre-amp and speakers through all this. The only thing that changed was the power amp.
So my question, to the wise and educated of which I am not, is why? Maybe even how?

+1 on how it feels to play through a Crest CA9. I own one too.

As far as the Class D vs. Lead Sled debate goes, I’ll stay out of it. I own an Aguilar TH500, and it sounds great IMO. And its small size and weight make load-ins/load-outs a breeze.

I bought a Class D Yamaha PX5 about a year ago, but I haven’t used it on a gig yet.

At home, it’s louder that I can get away with. My wife and daughters pretty much shut me down before I can really give my big cabinets a workout with it.

I have been meaning to do a CA9 vs PX5 shootout for quite some time. I’ll have a chance to one in a few more months after my work schedule slows down.

I will start a thread about it.

 

[gtirard]

whew, those instructions are not clear at all. I work in data and use github/python occasionally and that is a confusing mess on how to capture an amp.

Do you have an easy way to describe how to capture amps?

There are several tutorials on Youtube:
https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=NAM+how+to+capture+amps

 

[micguy]

The PA I played through last weekend, all class D amps, not entirely sure of the total wattage, but it's well into the 10's of kilowatts. Seemed to have plenty of "slam".

 

[Jazzdogg]

Would you say that this move towards higher and steeper HPFs has corresponded with improvements in speaker design? Specifically that modern speakers / cabs are able to produce more and bigger low end.

In my very unscientific observation it seems that bands who used to gig with a couple of 15" mains for the PA now gig with a couple of mains and a couple of subs.
Or that over the past 10-15 years on TB bass players started making a move to bass cabs that are able to produce a lot more low end, and then shortly after everyone started adding HPFs to their rigs.

My appreciation for high-pass filters, and especially variable hpf, has more to do with my ability to compensate for interactions between loudspeakers and the listening environment than differences in the low frequency capabilites of the cabs themselves.

It's a bonus that I can also use a variable high-pass filter to coax more volume out of my diminutive 8" cabs without damaging the drivers, and to amplify double bass without having the lowest octave overwhelm my ability to hear myself clearly.

Take these comments with a grain of salt; the needs of this old man may be far different than yours.

 

[Jazzdogg]

Has nothing to do with marketing and everything to do with their technologies.

I designed successful class AB lead sled amps long before designing class D amps, both in the pro audio and bass markets.

Here's an example of one of my class AB amps, for those who think I only understand class D technology:

View attachment 5252472
[Invalid or Expired Link Removed]

I, for one, appreciate your knowledge and accomplishments, and ignore anyone foolish enough to suggest otherwise.

 

[agedhorse]

whew, those instructions are not clear at all. I work in data and use github/python occasionally and that is a confusing mess on how to capture an amp.

Do you have an easy way to describe how to capture amps?

May I suggest starting by buying the original amp so that the designer and builder benefits, rather than simply copying their original work for free?

 

[Lammchop93]

May I suggest starting by buying the original amp so that the designer and builder benefits, rather than simply copying their original work for free?

I never viewed a digital capture of an amp as copying. But I’m not an Amp Designer, so my opinion isn’t valid there.

I just view it as an easy way to get an idea of what an amp sound like. No way it can sound identical to the real thing.

To be frank, I have used amp capture plugins to “test” amps before I bought one to get an idea of what they sound like. So in that regard, it actually created a sale for a manufacturer.

 

[agedhorse]

I never viewed a digital capture of an amp as copying. But I’m not an Amp Designer, so my opinion isn’t valid there.

I just view it as an easy way to get an idea of what an amp sound like. No way it can sound identical to the real thing.

To be frank, I have used amp capture plugins to “test” amps before I bought one to get an idea of what they sound like. So in that regard, it actually created a sale for a manufacturer.

Ime, you are in the minority then.

 

[Lammchop93]

Ime, you are in the minority then.

I appreciate your perspective though! Never thought about it like that.

 

[Jazzdogg]

W

May I suggest starting by buying the original amp so that the designer and builder benefits, rather than simply copying their original work for free?

Unfortunately, we've become a culture that normalizes stealing, and readily ignores doing the wrong thing because everyone else is doing it.

 

[Joebone]

W


Unfortunately, we've become a culture that normalizes stealing, and readily ignores doing the wrong thing because everyone else is doing it.

Amen, Brother! Streaming cratered the music industry, and it's also now happening in filmed entertainment. Subscription services are better than outright piracy, but the diminution in dollars, for both creators/talent and their corporate gatekeepers, is profound.

 

[agedhorse]

Amen, Brother! Streaming cratered the music industry, and it's also now happening in filmed entertainment. Subscription services are better than outright piracy, but the diminution in dollars, for both creators/talent and their corporate gatekeepers, is profound.

It is. My brother is a long time writer and producer in the TV content industry, the downward pressure on the content developers is very real, to the point that often the content costs to more produce than the services (their clients) are willing to pay. Ultimately, the best, most experienced folks retire or otherwise leave the industry, being replaced by those who are willing to work for less and less. It's almost like the "pay to play" model that's common in the live music scene.

 

[Wasnex]

It is. My brother is a long time writer and producer in the TV content industry, the downward pressure on the content developers is very real, to the point that often the content costs to more produce than the services (their clients) are willing to pay. Ultimately, the best, most experienced folks retire or otherwise leave the industry, being replaced by those who are willing to work for less and less. It's almost like the "pay to play" model that's common in the live music scene.

My perception is they are trying to kill network TV so the only option is for people to pay for streaming services.

The bigger networks are mostly putting out reality TV and game shows. My understanding is these are very cheap to produce, but I have little interest in watching most of them.

The other thing I notice is scheduling has become increasingly unreliable. For someone to get hooked on a show, they need to develop the habit of watching it every week at the same time. But it seems a lot of shows run randomly. Also if you miss an episode, the only way to view it may be to subscribe to streaming, because the rerun schedule is even more unpredictable than the first run schedule. I missed a few episodes of a show and the reruns were broadcast out of order. Some episodes seemed to run multiple times, but the two I had missed never came up again.

Most of my favorite shows have been cancelled. I have observed a few scripted shows with relatively low production values that seem to get renewed despite low ratings. Some of these had great concepts and rich back stories, but the writing seemed amateurish at best. Perhaps the scripts were generated by AI.

 

[edervjo]

+1 on how it feels to play through a Crest CA9. I own one too.

As far as the Class D vs. Lead Sled debate goes, I’ll stay out of it. I own an Aguilar TH500, and it sounds great IMO. And its small size and weight make load-ins/load-outs a breeze.

I bought a Class D Yamaha PX5 about a year ago, but I haven’t used it on a gig yet.

At home, it’s louder that I can get away with. My wife and daughters pretty much shut me down before I can really give my big cabinets a workout with it.

I have been meaning to do a CA9 vs PX5 shootout for quite some time. I’ll have a chance to one in a few more months after my work schedule slows down.

I will start a thread about it.

Yes, i would be very interested in the results!!!!

 

[Drredplate]

My perception is they are trying to kill network TV so the only option is for people to pay for streaming services.

The bigger networks are mostly putting out reality TV and game shows. My understanding is these are very cheap to produce, but I have little interest in watching most of them.

The other thing I notice is scheduling has become increasingly unreliable. For someone to get hooked on a show, they need to develop the habit of watching it every week at the same time. But it seems a lot of shows run randomly. Also if you miss an episode, the only way to view it may be to subscribe to streaming, because the rerun schedule is even more unpredictable than the first run schedule. I missed a few episodes of a show and the reruns were broadcast out of order. Some episodes seemed to run multiple times, but the two I had missed never came up again.

Most of my favorite shows have been cancelled. I have observed a few scripted shows with relatively low production values that seem to get renewed despite low ratings. Some of these had great concepts and rich back stories, but the writing seemed amateurish at best. Perhaps the scripts were generated by AI.

you are correct on the cheap to produce aspect with reality tv shows.
I did one with a tv company. One of those DIY rescue type shows. I can tell you that reality TV is an oxymoron.
I don’t normally watch TV at all but I did watch myself in an orgy of narcissistic pleasure lol.
Also from personal experience the industry (in uk at least) is totally incestuous. New talent won’t get a look in they won’t look at your material unless you’re part of the “in crowd “
Probably why TV is now total crap.

 

[gtirard]

I never viewed a digital capture of an amp as copying. But I’m not an Amp Designer, so my opinion isn’t valid there.

I just view it as an easy way to get an idea of what an amp sound like. No way it can sound identical to the real thing.

To be frank, I have used amp capture plugins to “test” amps before I bought one to get an idea of what they sound like. So in that regard, it actually created a sale for a manufacturer.

I fully agree, and I add two more reasons:

1. You just cannot get an idea of what an amp sounds like by looking at a Youtube demo, even truying an amp in a store can be missleading because you are in such a special context, whereas if you play with an amp model in your daw, you can get an idea of how it sounds in your context, with your music, your instrument, and your playing.

2. If I really like an amp model, I will probably end up buying the real amp, because nothing can replace a real amp, especially the ability to adjust the setting with physical knobs.

(and I think that people who simply use amp modelers instead of real amps would not buy fancy amps if amp modelers didn't exist anyway)

So I'm a part of this minority, I own $5K worth of amps and I like playing with amp modelers to discover new gear, I think there's enough room for virtual solutions and physical amps.

 

[Lammchop93]

I fully agree, and I add two more reasons:

1. You just cannot get an idea of what an amp sounds like by looking at a Youtube demo, even truying an amp in a store can be missleading because you are in such a special context, whereas if you play with an amp model in your daw, you can get an idea of how it sounds in your context, with your music, your instrument, and your playing.

2. If I really like an amp model, I will probably end up buying the real amp, because nothing can replace a real amp, especially the ability to adjust the setting with physical knobs.

(and I think that people who simply use amp modelers instead of real amps would not buy fancy amps if amp modelers didn't exist anyway)

So I'm a part of this minority, I own $5K worth of amps and I like playing with amp modelers to discover new gear, I think there's enough room for virtual solutions and physical amps.

View attachment 5253600

glad I’m not the only one. Maybe amp manufacturers should start offering trials of their amp plugins to boost sales? There is not much in person selection where I live, so playing through a plug-in is the best I can get to trying out an amp before buying.

 

[Jazzdogg]

My perception is they are trying to kill network TV so the only option is for people to pay for streaming services.

The bigger networks are mostly putting out reality TV and game shows. My understanding is these are very cheap to produce, but I have little interest in watching most of them.

The other thing I notice is scheduling has become increasingly unreliable. For someone to get hooked on a show, they need to develop the habit of watching it every week at the same time. But it seems a lot of shows run randomly. Also if you miss an episode, the only way to view it may be to subscribe to streaming, because the rerun schedule is even more unpredictable than the first run schedule. I missed a few episodes of a show and the reruns were broadcast out of order. Some episodes seemed to run multiple times, but the two I had missed never came up again.

Most of my favorite shows have been cancelled. I have observed a few scripted shows with relatively low production values that seem to get renewed despite low ratings. Some of these had great concepts and rich back stories, but the writing seemed amateurish at best. Perhaps the scripts were generated by AI.

Our answer, about ten years ago, was to stop watching TV. No more incessant negativity masquerading as news, no more commercials, no more mind-numbing plots, no more mediocre acting, no more focusing on the utterly unimportant.

More walks in the woods and on the beach, more books, more playing music with friends, more time spent with the kids and grandchildren.

I don't miss the pop culture mindset or the relentless crass commercialism at all. And our mental and physical health have improved.

The best thing most American can do for themselves and their families is to unplug, IMHO.