Colleges?

[pedro]

BTW, Jim, he opted for the Latin band and if your travels in Denton give you a chance to catch them in action be sure to say 'hello'.

 

[Jim Carr]

BTW, Jim, he opted for the Latin band and if your travels in Denton give you a chance to catch them in action be sure to say 'hello'.

Thanks!
I'll be in Denton over the 31st weekend. PM me with any concert info.

 

[pedro]

I'll find out if there is anything going but in as much as you semi there a lot I just figured sooner or later something would come up.

 

[EADG mx]

what if i entered, did a general music class while polishing my skills for the first year, as well as getting my gen. ed. classes out of the way in the process. Then declare music my major my second year and auditioned then. any input on this thought? or any other suggestions? is this even possible?

Honestly I think you'd be better off taking some time off to study performance, theory, signing, piano privately. Take lessons, read books, practice practice practice. Get some RCM or equivalent grades (theory and history certification)

 

[Icarus26]

Alright guys. i think i've come to a conclusion. Starting as soon as possible, i will be searching for a piano instructor and classes to help me with ear training & music theory. Hopefully my instructor will be able to get me into recitals and such. With college, i've decided i'm going to a community college for two years while all of previous is going on. Then i'll pick the school with the program that appeals to me the most and tear the audition up.

 

[EADG mx]

ime it's not the audition that you have to worry about.

 

[Stumbo]

ime it's not the audition that you have to worry about.

more details?

 

[Stumbo]

Starting as soon as possible, i will be searching for a piano instructor and classes to help me with ear training & music theory.

With college, i've decided i'm going to a community college for two years

If you really want to make progress in music, you'll have to put in thousands of hours in those 2 years just to have a chance in getting good enough to be at the beginning music major level.

IME, trying to take GE classes and do the music thing will ensure that neither will be done well enough. The music studies will flush itself out in the end: either you're good enough or you aren't.

Since there's a finite time available (2 yrs.) if you don't put in enough time for the music, you most likely won't be able to reach the standard of excellence required by the music schools.

I think you under estimate the difficulty of the task ahead.

Another variable in this scenario is: do you really enough talent to be a music major?

 

[EADG mx]

more details?

The part you need to worry about is keeping up with the work and your peers once you get in.

 

[Jim Carr]

If you really want to make progress in music, you'll have to put in thousands of hours in those 2 years just to have a chance in getting good enough to be at the beginning music major level.

Let's see. Say you have 3 lessons a week (1 hour each). If you have one on electric bass (or double bass), one in harmony and ear training, and one on piano, you will then need to practice for each one.

Let's say you do 20 hours a week of practice, which is approximately an hour a day for each lesson. In a month that is 80 hours, and in a year that is 12 x 80 = 960 hours. In two years that adds up to nearly 2000 hours of work, assuming you do it all summer, too.

Fitting homework and classes into that equation might work if you don't take too many credit hours at school. Forget about a part-time job.

IME, trying to take GE classes and do the music thing will ensure that neither will be done well enough. The music studies will flush itself out in the end: either you're good enough or you aren't.

There are GE classes and their are GE classes. Taking Math, Chemistry, Biology or Physics each might be too demanding, as you can end up with several hours of homework for each class meeting. However, Literature, Philosophy, History, Political Science, etc. are more reading oriented, and might be more doable if you are disciplined about not getting behind. Since the OP is a good student, I suspect his best bet is to try to take GE classes that are in his strongest areas, especially those that are less likely to have daily assignments due. All IMHO.

Since there's a finite time available (2 yrs.) if you don't put in enough time for the music, you most likely won't be able to reach the standard of excellence required by the music schools.

True, but the standards of music departments vary widely. I think the main requirement at most Universities and Colleges is a high level of performance of classical solos and good sight-reading on your instrument. Ear training and basic theory are important, but being able to harmonize a tune in 4-part chorale style, write strict or tonal counterpoint, compose a minuet in the style of Haydn, analyze a Beethoven Sonata movement, or wail like Bird on the Ice Cream changes are goals, not usually entrance requirements--unless we are talking graduate school.

Check the audition requirements for schools you are interested in. Generally the conservatories and large state universities are the most competitive. State Colleges with smaller departments are less demanding. Furthermore, double bass is an attractive instrument for departments, but sadly electric bass is much much less so. Bottom line: if you can play double bass in the orchestra (and you must ) they will WANT you, especially if you can read well, play pretty well in tune, use the bow for a classical solo (or two), play all your scales in two octaves with the bow, and walk Jazz changes.

Composition is a whole 'nother country....

I think you under estimate the difficulty of the task ahead.

Probably. But a bigger mistake is being afraid to get the facts about what is expected and setting out to learn it, IMHO.

Another variable in this scenario is: do you really enough talent to be a music major?

Yes. However, a bigger problem is what if you get in but can't finish. In this regard I caution anyone considering a music major about the following: if you cannot match pitch well vocally, your chances of graduating from even a less competitive music program are certainly near zero. I guarantee that. You must be able to match pitch vocally. I am not talking about having a big range, a big voice, or a beautiful sound. I am talking about if I play a Bb on the piano, you can instantly sing Bb very well in tune in the octave of your choice.

Why is this important? Simple: You have to be able to sing melodies assigned as part of your ear training courses. Pitch matching is essential for this. It is not that learnable if you are profoundly limited in this. Improving pitch matching is a BTWWNL (Big Topic We Will Now Leave).

In most cases if you can't do the sight-singing part of the Ear training course, you will FLUNK theory. Music faculties will not let you pass the required theory classes without passing sight singing. However, one can then change majors and still get a degree. You aren't less of a person, you are just less endowed with pitch discrimination ability. It is not a sin, crime, or character flaw. It is just that being a music student in the typical music department or school is not for you.

If you are not sure if you can match pitch, ask yourself these questions:

Do you sing in your band (lead or lots of harmony).
Can you tell when others are not singing the right notes?
Do you find it possible to figure out bass lines by ear? Even if it is hard and you have to find each note one at a time--that is OK.
Do you find it easy to play in time and stay together with others?
Did you have experience in music as a child (lots of singing in school, an instrument, piano lessons, church choir, etc.)?

On the other hand, if you almost never have used your singing voice, or when you do, people often say you are "off key" (which means you have not matched pitch with the tonal center and intervals of the tune you are trying to sing). If you have A LOT of trouble finding a bass part from a recording on your fretboard, or have been told you rush or drag the tempo, these are red flags.

Never-the-less, get an ear training teacher. You will soon answer those questions. All IMHO.

BTW, to study ear training, besides a teacher you will need a piano and a metronome.

 

[StyleOverShow]

I have a degree in music composition and went back to school to get a degree in something useful. Everyone's path is different, so take all the advice and sit with it awhile before you make up your mind.

I would choose a school that has an active music scene, like Austin, TX where you can practice your skills and craft new ideas from the harmony and counterpoint classes.

Finally, most music schools are rooted in the II-V resolution of Western Europe music. Cal Arts seems to be one of those schools that has an exceptional program not based on Western European theory exclusively.

 

[pedro]

Probably. But a bigger mistake is being afraid to get the facts about what is expected and setting out to learn it, IMHO.

Absolutely!! From personal experience I can tell you that its one thing to try and fail at something you love vs. not giving it a real try and then spending your entire life wondering. I was too scare, stupid, immature to see that I had to take a step or two backward and learn to read music to get what I wanted. And the result is I've spent 30 yrs doing something I dislike.

Yes. However, a bigger problem is what if you get in but can't finish. In this regard I caution anyone considering a music major about the following: if you cannot match pitch well vocally, your chances of graduating from even a less competitive music program are certainly near zero. I guarantee that. You must be able to match pitch vocally. I am not talking about having a big range, a big voice, or a beautiful sound. I am talking about if I play a Bb on the piano, you can instantly sing Bb very well in tune in the octave of your choice.

Why is this important? Simple: You have to be able to sing melodies assigned as part of your ear training courses. Pitch matching is essential for this. It is not that learnable if you are profoundly limited in this. Improving pitch matching is a BTWWNL (Big Topic We Will Now Leave).

In most cases if you can't do the sight-singing part of the Ear training course, you will FLUNK theory. Music faculties will not let you pass the required theory classes without passing sight singing. However, one can then change majors and still get a degree. You aren't less of a person, you are just less endowed with pitch discrimination ability. It is not a sin, crime, or character flaw. It is just that being a music student in the typical music department or school is not for you.

If you are not sure if you can match pitch, ask yourself these questions:

Do you sing in your band (lead or lots of harmony).
Can you tell when others are not singing the right notes?
Do you find it possible to figure out bass lines by ear? Even if it is hard and you have to find each note one at a time--that is OK.
Do you find it easy to play in time and stay together with others?
Did you have experience in music as a child (lots of singing in school, an instrument, piano lessons, church choir, etc.)?

On the other hand, if you almost never have used your singing voice, or when you do, people often say you are "off key" (which means you have not matched pitch with the tonal center and intervals of the tune you are trying to sing). If you have A LOT of trouble finding a bass part from a recording on your fretboard, or have been told you rush or drag the tempo, these are red flags.

Never-the-less, get an ear training teacher. You will soon answer those questions. All IMHO.

BTW, to study ear training, besides a teacher you will need a piano and a metronome.

Maybe I misunderstand but while I can't sing worth a damn I have no problem figuring out and transcribing my bass parts or identifying if someone is off.

 

[Jim Carr]

I have a degree in music composition and went back to school to get a degree in something useful. Everyone's path is different, so take all the advice and sit with it awhile before you make up your mind.

I would choose a school that has an active music scene, like Austin, TX where you can practice your skills and craft new ideas from the harmony and counterpoint classes.

Finally, most music schools are rooted in the II-V resolution of Western Europe music. Cal Arts seems to be one of those schools that has an exceptional program not based on Western European theory exclusively.

Cal Arts is great, but pretty competitive to get into, IME. They also do have a preference for classical players, again, IME.

Yet you have made an important point. If one is a truly creative musician at a high level, but not in the Western (classical) Tradition, there are some programs out there that may want you.

The usefulness of a music degree is often in direct proportion to how traditional and teaching oriented it is, IMHO.

 

[Jim Carr]

...Maybe I misunderstand but while I can't sing worth a damn I have no problem figuring out and transcribing my bass parts or identifying if someone is off.

No, I don't think you have misunderstood, but as I was hinting, it is a huge topic, this pitch matching thing. It does not surprise me that you can transcribe/figure out bass parts very well and yet feel you may not be that great at matching pitch vocally. This is not rare.

I have had a number of ear training students like this, and many were pretty good musicians. They all faced the problem of passing theory courses where they were required to sing prepared melodic exercises given a starting pitch/key, with all of the intervals and rhythms perfectly correct. The QUALITY of their vocal sound was not a issue. Being pretty much dead on pitch all the time was a major issue. We are not just talking intonation (in "tune-ness"), but rather keeping in the scale and tonal center reasonably well so as to not change keys, wander off the tonal center more than a little for a note or two, and clearly being able to match any starting pitch/key vocally.

This does not mean you could not do it, you probably can, or could get there. However, if a prospective music student goes to a private theory teacher and after a short amount of study the teacher says, "you can't match pitch and it does not seem to be improving" then that student should think twice about trying to pass traditional ear training classes, IMHO.

It doesn't mean that person is not a good musician. It means that they can't acquire the skill set the program requires. Most programs require this. I know, I have taught in five of them and studied in four of them, not to mention three private theory teachers along the way.

 

[pedro]

This hearing/singing thing is something I've always found fascinating after all we are all born with the same equipment - two ears, voice box, etc but some have no pitch, some have relative pitch and some have perfect pitch.

Anyhoo, this deserves its own thread.

 

[Jim Carr]

This hearing/singing thing is something I've always found fascinating after all we are all born with the same equipment - two ears, voice box, etc but some have no pitch, some have relative pitch and some have perfect pitch.

Anyhoo, this deserves its own thread.

+1

So Totally...

...and how it has affected each of us. It has always been a big deal for me, as a bassist, a student, college teacher, and now as a elementary school music teacher.

 

[pedro]

Jim did you get my PM?

P.S. If I decide to start a thread about hearing, etc. I'll be sure to PM you a link. I'd like your input.

 

[Jim Carr]

Jim did you get my PM?

P.S. If I decide to start a thread about hearing, etc. I'll be sure to PM you a link. I'd like your input.

You have PM.

 

[Stumbo]

... I caution anyone considering a music major about the following: if you cannot match pitch well vocally, your chances of graduating from even a less competitive music program are certainly near zero. I guarantee that.

Never-the-less, get an ear training teacher. You will soon answer those questions. All IMHO.

+1000

You said way better than me, Dr. Carr. Invaluable post.

 

[Jim Carr]

Alright guys. i think i've come to a conclusion. Starting as soon as possible, i will be searching for a piano instructor and classes to help me with ear training & music theory. Hopefully my instructor will be able to get me into recitals and such. With college, i've decided i'm going to a community college for two years while all of previous is going on. Then i'll pick the school with the program that appeals to me the most and tear the audition up.

I think this is a viable plan. As others have mentioned you probably don't have to pass an audition to take courses in music at a CC. However, really check them out. Public Community Colleges will have a better fit for transferring credits. Don't take to heavy a load at first, especially if you are serious about your piano lessons, theory classes, and bass study. What I'm getting at is you need to keep ALL your grades up while working hard at the private lessons.


To find private teachers, contact college music departments in near you. They will often have a list of teachers in the area, some who are graduates or grad. students, and others who are older and more established.

If you start with a teacher but think he/she may not be right for you, find another one and take from both for a couple of weeks, then make your decision (politely over the phone). Teachers are much happier when there is a good fit with their students.