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Common amp myths

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#181
fdeck said:
That's certainly a valid point. One problem is that an SPL meter does not measure volume as we perceive it. However, perhaps a combined measurement is possible. These days, an "oscilloscope" for the purpose of audio measurements is software that uses the audio input of a PC. Also, a SPL meter works simply by measuring the output of a microphone and displaying the results on a meter.

The PC could do both jobs. It could measure the output of the amplifier (through a suitable attenuator to avoid destroying the PC -- don't do this unless you know how to do it safely), and the output of a microphone, simultaneously. The recorded waveforms could be analyzed to provide relative measurements of SPL, but also other sorts of analyses as well.

To calibrate the PC's SPL scale, one could compare the PC measurement to a SPL meter using a sinewave input.
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You know, I DO believe in the validity of scientific measurement - but I also believe in real world observation...

Now, I can tell you that I have played more than a couple of gigs using a Marshall Major in a very loud metal band - and I've yet to see the 200 watt SS amp that could perform the same duties...

I'm really not trying to be obtuse, or an ass about this - but I really don't think that last example is so easily discounted, that's all...



- georgestrings
 
#182
alexgeddy said:
First..me thinks you deliberartely tried to start a flame war.....watts are watts till they are usable....Ampeg specs their amps at 1200 wats at 5 % THD plus no IMOD specs so for the casual bass player this results in less usable power.....therefore so many post about why ampeg sounds so underpowered,..... For your edification, go read a Crown power rating.... it's called usable watts......crown has a 5 db headroom..most bass amps have 2 or 3 at the most...My eden has 3 at best. i do agree when a SS power amo distorts it's ugly. Tubes handle the 3 db compression points better. but then you lose power...assuming you know that

Whatever you were talking about with headphones....go ask the phone company how they get deep voices through the phone. it's a trick to fool the ear into hearing deep tones..same as headphones.......


so i guess my main question is why did u post that? when you are full of it.

And yes bass frequencies take time to develop. Go spend some time in an anechoic chamber.... or a pro recording studio.... longer wavelengths = time to proprogate..a law of physics.....dispute that ...listen to an upright real close up...it sounds like crap....move about 10 fet away and it sounds great....duhhhh


feel free to pm me

Bill
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he must have taken flame war lessons from you :rolleyes:
 
#183
georgestrings said:
You know, I DO believe in the validity of scientific measurement - but I also believe in real world observation...

Now, I can tell you that I have played more than a couple of gigs using a Marshall Major in a very loud metal band - and I've yet to see the 200 watt SS amp that could perform the same duties...

I'm really not trying to be obtuse, or an ass about this - but I really don't think that last example is so easily discounted, that's all...



- georgestrings
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If you were able to measure the THD of that amp, and ONLY to use it to the point where a SS amp would distort, you would NOT be using the total available power of that amp. I think I am done posting responses to you.


On another note, Jimmy, can you post that beautiful rig of doom of yours? I think it deserves a place in this thread, if for no other reason than to lighten the mood.
 
#184
shakerattleroll said:
On another note, Jimmy, can you post that beautiful rig of doom of yours? I think it deserves a place in this thread, if for no other reason than to lighten the mood.
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Thought you'd never ask!

Invalid Link Removed Invalid Link Removed

Bill, with all due respect, I will take the word of an audio physicist over you. And said audio physicist says bass waves don't need room to develop.
 
#185
Nope...

i try to avoid even the appearance of a flame war...... his original post was so far off base... trying to incite a flame war... and I have read many of his other sarcastic posts...this time I felt obligated to answer him...

that is the long and tall of it

Bill
 
#186
shakerattleroll said:
This might get us close to measuring our perception but the fact remains, tube watts are no louder than ss watts. We just perceive a difference based on audition, otherwise known as the perception of sound.
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No problem. However I still want to know how that difference manifests itself in a quantifiable difference between measured waveforms.
 
#188
shakerattleroll said:
You are talking perception. Loudness and SPL, at least how you are using them, are two different things.

Unless you're telling us your ears are SPL meters, when you refer to the SVT being louder, that is the perception of volume that your ears and brain is creating.

IF, we measured the output of both to have the same watts, let's say we turned the amps up to 100 watts at their output, we might even then perceive them differently based on the gain structure of the eq in both.
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I'm just trying to wrap my mind around this one... So you're saying that if we perceive something to be louder, that doesn't mean that it IS louder?
 
#189
shakerattleroll said:
This might get us close to measuring our perception but the fact remains, tube watts are no louder than ss watts. We just perceive a difference based on audition, otherwise known as the perception of sound.

Side note to George. It isn't my job to do the research for you. Look into scholarly works on this, or read an electrical engineering book. Simply because you don't believe it does not mean it's not true.
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Yeah, and play a few gigs with each, then get back to me...

Honestly, I don't have to prove a thing to you, nor do I care to - I've played enough gigs in my lifetime to have some experience behind what I'm saying...



- georgestrings
 
#190
alexgeddy said:
....go ask the phone company how they get deep voices through the phone.
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That's a bit off-topic.

And yes bass frequencies take time to develop. Go spend some time in an anechoic chamber.... or a pro recording studio.... longer wavelengths = time to proprogate..a law of physics.....
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Since sound is a pressure wave, it's basically air compression. I don't see that it takes any distance. If you're in the sound wave, you hear it. Period.

...listen to an upright real close up...it sounds like crap....move about 10 fet away and it sounds great....
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It's the room. Try that outdoors and it won't work like that.
 
#191
shakerattleroll said:
You are talking perception. Loudness and SPL, at least how you are using them, are two different things.

Unless you're telling us your ears are SPL meters, when you refer to the SVT being louder, that is the perception of volume that your ears and brain is creating.

IF, we measured the output of both to have the same watts, let's say we turned the amps up to 100 watts at their output, we might even then perceive them differently based on the gain structure of the eq in both.
Click to expand...


No, that's what you're reading into what I've posted, because it suits what you're trying to "prove" - it isn't what I've posted, though...



- georgestrings
 
#192
alexgeddy said:
ask ur audio physicist about low frequency comms with submarines...
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Water and air are different media, so sound travels quite differently in them.

Again, it's off-topic. If you can answer on the topic, please do. But trotting out submarines and pianos doesn't necessarily address the question in the thread. We aren't asking how much you know on other topics.
 
#195
Myth: Multiples of 5 are best for bass speaker cabinets, i.e. 12 inch speakers are not 'good' bass speakers.

My take have a single 15, 8X10 and a twin reverse mounted 12 inch (with a horn) cabinet is that they are have different capabilities, but no one is a stand alone solution.
 
#196
I give :::::::::::::u guys are right....I have no clue what u are bassin ur "facts on" ....I'm not gonna even offer an opinion...the phone thing was an issue of how u can present bass...


Bass players are fooled all the time by specsmanship and I guess that was the whole point of my post (rant) .....good luck to u

Bill
 
#198
jsingles said:
1+ whats up with this?
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Well, that's what he's saying and then throwing in all kinds of confusing jargon about gain structure and stuff. I've sat through one too many board room meetings to know when someone is BS'ing their way through something. I'll give him that he probably knows a lot more than I do, but then again, I'm still learning all this stuff.

My thoughts, whether it's a myth or cold hard truth, if millions of people worldwide are perceiving something to be louder than something else, then that should be the REAL test. We are talking about bass ya know? :D
 
#199
Ok. Here's a myth i've heard:
The amplitud of the wave form the low E on a Bass is 1 mt (3 ft) wide.
Is this true?
If not, how wide is it?
(i know almost nothing about sound physics)

Sorry for the naive question and for breaking this never ending tube vs ss watt discussion
Thank you for your answer
 
#200
Obviously i believe that tube amps are perceived to be MUCH louder than many solid state amps of similar wattage, and I know there is a scientific explanation as to why.. but I think I would just like to hear it in "stupid people" terms so I can understand it better. So to ask his question again.. are they really the same volume scientifically?? but perceived to be different simply due to the nature of the sound a tube amp produces?
 
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