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common jazz riffs, licks etc.....

#21
HK said: Sometimes I can hear melodies that I cant play, my fingers just wont do the work - now how else will I ever be able to play these without practicing licks?

EF said: Well that's what I'm talking about. It's not that you don't have enough scales/modes/licks whatever under your fingers/"muscle memory" (we'll talk about that later). It's that you are not really hearing and comprehending what you are hearing with any clarity.
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I think you misunderand me? I am specifically talking about muscle memory.

Here's two real and current examples

* hammer-on/pull off using my ring and pinky
* playing with 100% rest strokes

Now I have actual physically difficulty using these techniques, so I each day when I practice I spend time getting used to these physical aspects of playing.
So for example I plays 30 mins using only rest strokes, then 5 mins playing licks with the hammeron/pull off - purely to get myself to the stage where I can physically perform the said action. And yes I practice this in a musical way - 99% of the time.

So when I'm practicing these techniques am I not practicing licks?

I must be missing something, because I have no idea what this has to do with "not really hearing and comprehending what you are hearing with any clarity".
I completely accept that this statement may well be true, but everything is relative and right now I hear music with more clarity than I ever have.

I hope this isn't too personal, but sometimes Ed I think you judge others musical ability too harshly.

Now, I'd be stoopid if I didnt realise I had more than a lifetimes worth to learn and that can be daunting enough without being crushed by a passing statement from someone who has already been through the stage I'm at!
I just think you should be a little more sensitive when telling people they dont know their arse form their elbow! :)

Q: Do you teach?

"You should practice licks and patterns to get your fingers, brain and eyes all in synch, so that you are comfortable in as wide a range of musical situations as possible. Licks and patterns should become part of your musical unconscious.....
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>>>This is what I mean... ta Bruce.
 
#22
Originally posted by Bruce Lindfield
Ok - here is a quote from Guitar World web site from an article by John Petrucci :

Wild Stringdom
by John Petrucci

Practice Makes Perfect, Part 2 Organizing your material

"For example, let's take a look at how I filed the technical section. First, I made a list of all the technical sub-categories I could think of, and then I assigned a folder to each one. I created one folder for scales (which also included scale patterns and sequences), and another one for arpeggios. Then I had a folder on left-hand studies, where I included things such as legato licks a la Allan Holdsworth and trilling exercises. I also made a folder that contained intervallic studies, such as string-skipping licks, and one containing chop-building exercises, such as speed studies and chromatic lines.
"

Invalid Link Removed


I rest my case!!!! :D
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Well here are some rock solid proof that I am correct in this case : [Invalid or Expired Link Removed]
 
#23
Originally posted by Ed Fuqua
Name one - on a CD that you can buy! I doubt this very much Imagine my shock and surprise.
Try Warne Marsh, Lennie Tristano, Jim Hall, Jimmy Raney, Stan Getz, Zoot well ya see where I'm going.

You need to start analyzing more solos Bruce. Some guys (like Kenny G) listen to Bird and all they hear is velocity. And squeaks. Some listen a little more closely and start picking up "Bird licks". Others spend more time with the music and start to hear that Bird isn't playing "licks", but does have a specific vocabulary that he approaches certain progressions with.
Does that mean that every time you hear a specific chord series you are going to hear Bird play the same thing?
No.
But, just like asking me about metronome use is going to get a response that uses similar language/stories/analogies in the similar ways to past responses, Bird's solo on a tune is going to be made up of his language and vocabulary. Doesn't mean he ain't "improvising".

OK, this is a comment to the negative - why should one NOT learn licks, how can it damage your playing? Depends on the HOW and WHY, Howard. The trap most folks fall into is just trying to get the notes. This set of notes over this set of changes. Which is like memorising lines of Shakespeare in order to spout them back in a conversation.
But what if you read Shakespeare to inform yourself about the breadth and depth of the human experience? About how language can sound coming out your mouth, and how that can make you and others feel? About how rhythm of speech can shape meaning and emotion, how word choice and placement and sound and rhjythm can not just communicate how you are feeling or thinking, but can give the listener those same thoughts and feelings.

You transcribe a solo just to get the notes, so you'll have something to play well, it's a way to sound like you're playing without really playing anything of substance. You transcribe a solo to get at what somebody is trying to say, you take away so much more than just the "licks", you take away something that will inform your playing with your own meaning.

Sometimes I can hear melodies that I cant play, my fingers just wont do the work - now how else will I ever be able to play these without practicing licks? Well that's what I'm talking about. It's not that you don't have enough scales/modes/licks whatever under your fingers/"muscle memory" (we'll talk about that later). It's that you are not really hearing and comprehending what you are hearing with any clarity. So the thing to work on is NOT taking off some Pres solo to get more notes, the thing to do is to take off a Pres solo so that you work on getting:
1.a clear picture of the solo in your ear- This means being able to sing the solo, at half speed, then at full speed, with all the pitches, nuances, vibrato, attacks, decay etc EXACTLY like the original solo. So that when you sing it with the recording you can't tell what's your voice and what's the tenor.
2.hearing what's going on in the solo- hear the arpeggios, the stepwise motion, the intervallic leaps, the chord tensions. Being able to understand that the change in the tune is a C-7 and hearing/comprehending the notes and their relationship to that chord
3.hearing the solo clear enough that you can pick up your instrument and play the notes you are singing/hearing in your head.

Cause when you can do that for a solo/line that you heard somebody else play, you are getting closer to playing that line that you are making up yourself over that set of changes. Not a lick. Your own line.

And it may be that because you are playing what you hear in your head and what you are capable of hearing with that clarity is only what you are capable of hearing with that clarity, what you play over a tune will have a certain similarity, of vocabulary, of intent etc. But you are improvising without playing licks because you are responding to your aural environment with what you can HEAR, not what you've worked up.


the 'common' jazz riffs and such for soloing There's no such thing. What jazz musicians (from beginner to dead) are trying to do is come up with ideas that convey how they are hearing the changes to a particular song.
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So are you saying that Mark Levine is "wrong" when he says in the "Jazz Theory Book :

"virtually every great soloist has practiced licks and patterns. As you practice, you might worry that you're going to end up as a copy of a player whose licks you're stealing. The fear is largely unjustified. Very few musicians wind up sounding like a clone of another player. "


I can hear Getz "licks" very easily - just to take one of your more familiar examples - I don't see anything wrong in this - any more than transcribing and practicing Jaco solos or licks, means I sound anything like Jaco !!! ;)

In the same way that John Petrucci can tell you what Allan Holdsworth's licks are - even if Holdsworth himself says he hasn't learnt any!! ;)
 
#24
The way I see it the goal for me is rather simple:

I want to be able to play what I hear in the moment with little to no lagtime between my ideas (what I'm hearing) and what comes out of my bass (what I'm hearing coming out as music).

Everything I'm working on has something to do with reaching this goal.

/lovebown
 
#25
Originally posted by Ed Fuqua
You transcribe a solo just to get the notes, so you'll have something to play well, it's a way to sound like you're playing without really playing anything of substance. You transcribe a solo to get at what somebody is trying to say, you take away so much more than just the "licks", you take away something that will inform your playing with your own meaning.
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I reckon you've nailed it there, Ed. I was thinking similar things when reading these posts - but I gotta say Ed, you got the knack of describing this stuff so that people can understand it.
 
#26
Originally posted by Ed Fuqua
Bruce, you can rest whatever is getting tired. Take as much time as you need.

And if you choose to misinterpret what I'm saying, I certainly won't stop you. You might want to consider exactly what the point is, though.

My experience with "academic" jazz education was very much in line with Mark Levine's approach. There is much good information in Mark's book as there is to be had at many schools that teach jazz. But on this point in particular I think much can be gained, for a musician that is looking to increase the depth of their understanding, by a closer examination of what's going on here. Are you really saying that Bird listening to a Pres record until the grooves wore out, until he could play along with every nuance of that solo is the same thing as "copying licks"? Do you really think the same depth of understanding can be had by two individuals, one of whom has taken off a single Bird solo by singing along with it (as in the above example), the other who has memorised the notes to play from the Bird Omnibook?

And do you still think that that's what Mark is saying?
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I think it's now a question of semantics - I'm not trying to interpret Mark Levine - I just quoted him verbatim. He has a section in his chapter on practicing, entilted "licks and patterns" - he calls it that - not me.

"Beet here is trying to find something out, you helping or you not?!"

Well - at the very start of this I posted some links to books that do have Jazz licks - which is what he asked for!!

I still haven't heard a convincing reason for not practicing "licks and pattersn" - and Mark Levine certainly seems to be advocating this as well as several Jazz tutors I have worked with - if they're all wrong, I'd like to know! ;)

It would certainly make for some good arguments at my next Jazz classes !! :D
 
#28
How about if we said that it was worth practicing licks as a way of making practice more interesting - but that you should always avoid including them in "performance" ? Would that make sense? After all - I took the the Mark Levine quote from a Chapter headed "Practice, Practice, Practice!" ;)

On the Getz licks thing - I know they exist as the Tenor player in my band alway plays them in solos over Bossas we do - the general public likes them, but to me, it's not Jazz.

I veer both ways - so I hate "quotations" in solos and cringe usually. I have heard a lot of Jazz groups that obviously avoid licks and patterns - but then often leave nothing for the audience to "hang onto" - whereas, I've heard some players indulging in solos with a lot of "Bluesy" licks (on the appropriate tunes ) and it sounded great and got huge applause!!

I think audiences like to hear some references to past traditions, crafted into a solo, that as a whole is saying something in an individual style - so I have noticed that a lot of the UK Jazzers will insert sections in solos whic are "in the style of Coltrane", for example - for contrast, light and shade - in the same way they might have a quiet passage or change the feel.

If you hadn't studied licks - then I think it would be pretty hard to do this?

So I heard the Israeli exile Sax Player/composer - Gilad Atzmon play a solo, that went from Bach accompanied by bowed bass, to Ellington, to Coltrane and then emulated Palestinian singing with Eastern scales and quarter tones - surely you define and study these idioms through practicing "licks" - how else would you do it?
 
#29
I think all might be correct in this case, it not that important which route you choose as your learning path because what is really important is the trip.

If you spend enough time looking for "it", one day you will realize that you have somehow already passed it. It might have been right there at your starting point, you just werent able to see it then.
 
#31
Originally posted by Ed Fuqua
And it's unfortunate if what (for example) Bruce needs is for me to agree with his assessment in some way, cause I don't. I just don't say I don't, I give examples of what my experience led me to my opinion. Anyone is free to agree or disagree, take it or leave it, whatever. I'm not sure in what way that constitutes a "judgement" on my part.
If somebody has an opinion that disagrees with my experience, I'm gonna say so. And I'm gonna say why. They are welcome to do the same.
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No really - I'm on a steep learning curve and would love to get where you are and I often feel that TalkBass helps both ways - if I can explain something to somebody else then it means I have it fixed in my head.

I suppose there were two things in my head here - so personaly I don't practice licks, but I had just been looking in the Jazz Theory Book about this and I had also just been to a workshop taught by a guy who teaches on the UK Aebersold Summer School and who is highly-respected in the UK as a Jazz pianist/composer.

So he gave us an A4 sheet of Bluesy Jazz licks and said to try these in all keys and learn them for next week and incorporate them in solos - I didn't do it and just played what I usually do - but it started me thinking that my solos don't sound Jazzy or Bluesy - they just are me and maybe I should be trying to play more idiomatically - so if we are playing a Horace Silver head - like we were playing "Silver's Serenade" - that I should try to play a solo that sounded like it came from that era or style?

I don't know - so I'm getting a lot of feedback from varous teachers and books that licks are useful, only last week in one specific case - so I was serious that next time I might argue about it, with the tutor - do you doubt I can argue any case? ;)
 
#32
Well first musical ability isn't any kind of moral judgement, it's just a measure of the work you've put in. So I'm not sure what you mean by that. If somebody has an opinion that disagrees with my experience, I'm gonna say so. And I'm gonna say why. They are welcome to do the same.
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Yup that's cool, I totally agree.
I'll try to explain ...I meant that, in my opinion, you sometimes dish out fairly harsh comments on someones apparent understanding and - again IMO - you could possibley communicate better by using a higher degree of tact.

I came online basically talking about practicing a technique in the form of what I (wrongly) called licks - and you commented that I was "not really hearing and comprehending what you are hearing with any clarity". Wallop! Can you understand where I'm coming from?

I felt like I was totally missing the point after reading your comment... and now reading further into the post (after being away from PC from a coupladays) I find that due to a slight communication breakdown I wasnt really that far in the wrong on that particular point (I'll exlain further down).
So I go away and I analyse what I'm doing, which is indeed good, but I also feel like I'm being really dumb for several days - which isn't good.

Now you could of course argue that because you're generous enough to share the wealth of your experience with us TB'ers (and it is generous, thank you) then tact is a waste of time, i.e. "take it or leave it".. but I just dont think it worls like that. Some people would and probably will be set-back by some of your comments. It's all very well you helping by sharing knowledge, but if you dont do it in a contstructive manor - which yet again IMO - I dont think you always do, you could do more harm than good in some cases.
To put it anoother way you come accross as a very knowlegdable person on TB and I believe (see) that you a lot of respect because of that, so any negative comment from yourself is taken very seriously and quite often, I expect, to heart.

So hammer ons, rest strokes, I dunno. I never practiced any of that. The thing that I've worked on with Joe is getting an even attack no matter which finger has a string under it.
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This is pretty much exactly what I'm practicing when I'm practicing hammerons and rest strokes!
In my last lesson Steve highlighted how different rest strokes (pulling through the string rather than a sort of plucking technique I tend to use naturally) sound to the way I 'usually' play, so I've been working on my technique by playing what I called licks (which I now reaslise aren't licks). Anyway, I've been practicing consistency and dynamic using this new technique (basiclaly just making every note sound as good as I can make it!) - from what you said above it sounds as though this is exactly what you're doing.

So your comment (that I reacted badly to) on my lack or clarity in listening (which I'm sure is true), was needless.

Why should you be crushed? I've never said "Pack it in you talentless git", right? But I would think that "since I've been through this stage before", you would value some advice about what I feel worked and what didn't. If you don't, no skin off my nose. If you do, then why are you trying to convince me that I should be saying something else?
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I was kind of exagerrating for comedy value - it was said in jest basically! Things like that dont come accross to well via le net - I shoud've learnt that by now really! Don't get me wrong, I do completely appreciate your sharing your experience with us - I really do - I wouldnt read (and copy on some occaisions) your sometimes lengthy posts otherwise.
I'm not trying to convince you that you should be saying something else. Just that sometimes the way you say things (as with everybody) could be improved - IMO you have a tendancy to come accross that you're telling people their wrong and your right, rather than offering advice.
 

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