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Double Bass Compound meter play-alongs

Tom Lane

Gold Supporting Member
Apr 28, 2011
3,594
5,175
Southwest Los Angeles, CA, USA
I've collected a few arrangements of tunes in compound meters and I'm thinking about the next step, creating play-alongs for bandmates to practice along with and ran into a problem. Ordinarily, I'd use iRealPro or Band-in-a-Box to create play-alongs because neither my piano or drumming are up to the task and I can get a somewhat functional quartet - melody, harmony, bass, and drums - with Band-in-a-Box and can get all but the melody, sort of, with iRealPro. But, Band-in-a-Box can't handle compound meters well - it appears to be limited to the point of near non-existence. IRealPro can handle compound meters by changing the meter every measure but no melody and... it's... not so wonderful.

My question is: is there a software that could provide me with a decent play-along if I'm willing to tell it what to play, type it in? Any suggestions?

I can play the bass lines to all of these tunes and I might - 50% confident? - be able to play time on a drum kit for them, and piano... at a slow tempo with a bit of practice but a better way might be for me to record the bass track, send it to the drummer and have him overlay the drum track and he send it to the pianist who overlays the piano track, etc, but I don't know how challenging that would be now either - different software, etc.

Just how much pain am I signing up for with this? ;)
 
Musescore is free and should mostly help. It can play a software instrument sound or output midi files. What compound signatures are you thinking about? 6/8 is simple. Some of the more complex ones like 7/8 are supported. In the inspector area, you can change default beaming of 1/8 notes from the default 3+2+2 to 2+2+3. But for something like a drum beat playing along, you will need to specify which notes are dotted to match up. I don’t know how to make a 3/7 time signature but common compound signatures seem to be supported.

If you say specifically what you want to notate, then someone can help more easily.
 
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DrumGenius has an entire page of odd meter loops and grooves available. You might not find the exact one you are looking for, but often there will be something close. From there I usually go to the piano and lay down a track that covers the changes. Good luck!
 
I would also recommend a notation software like MuseScore.
The problem with compound meters are that you often cannot specify the subdivisions and even if you can the automatically generated groove might not be the one you might want/need.

So you better write anything out to have the complete control yourself.

You can try rhythm notation with chords if you don‘t want to write them out every time, but I‘m not sure they will be played.
(I think they do, but you have to place the chord symbol directly above the rhythm note, specially on an anticipated one, and I don‘t know if the chord is repeated on the next rhythm note without a chord symbol. I guess not.)

Even with a 5/4 there is not only the option of 3+2 and 2+2 but also how the 3 is divided (like with Take Five or three quarters or quarter and eighth-quarter-eighth) and where the heavy beats are. Like „Take Five“ on the first quarter of each subdivision or like in a piece of mine on the 1 and 2+ of the 3 part and only light beats on the quarters of the 2 part.
With longer compound meters that gets even more complicated.

To solve this one needs to define the groove by hierarchical subdivisions and accents, but I don‘t know a software that is able to work like that and if you want to define variations too, it gets even more complicated to define and generate (you may need to define part lengths and structure of the piece too, breaks etc. to get an automated groove output that fits).
I don‘t know a software for rhythm part generation that realizes this concept.

Even with iReal Pro I‘m often not happy with the rhythm/groove I get. It is too much standardized in a certain way that is not my way, even with 4/4 and it‘s not really a matter of style. (It might be if I could define a style myself and change it in between, but it is not a composing tool and intentionally has its limits.)
 
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Thanks for your comments. @DoubleMIDI summarized my findings well - that neither Finale, Band-in-a-Box, nor iRealPro do a good job of supporting compound meter tunes because of a lack of groove and an inability to control the subdivisions. In my case, to respond to @Dadum, I have six tunes: two in 7/4, three in 5/4, and one that's not a compound meter tune, but a mixed meter. But, the two in 7/4, All the Things You Are and Autumn Leaves, Autumn Leaves is 3+4 and AtTYA is 4+3. The three 5/4 tunes, Take Five, All of Me, and Dolphin Dance, Take Five is 3+2 and the other two are 2+3. The mixed meter tune is one of my teacher's arrangement of I Love You which starts in 4/4, switches to 3/4 for the bridge and then has a bossa interlude. It was a striking arrangement and see, it pays to go hear your teachers perform!
Of the six, all except Dolphin Dance fit their new meters willingly. DD is unusual in that the melody frequently starts on the second half or the last beat of the measure and so, adding a beat makes that a tug-of-war when I was adjusting the melody. I'm still evaluating whether it works or not. The tunes in 7/4 fit easily, just lopping off a beat every other measure and most tunes have enough space to accommodate that. I also found it interesting that while applying 7/4 to tunes is 'lopping off a beat', but 5/4 adds a beat every measure.
I expect that @Chris Fitzgerald's suggestion is the way to go. At least that way, I have a competent drummer. Although, there is some charm in recording the bass line and then sending that out to my bandmates to overdub their parts because it'll force them to figure out their part before the rehearsal.
As a bassist, I don't find compound meter tunes particularly challenging because I already have ways of getting from chord to chord in 2/4, 3/4, and 4/4 time but as a soloist, that's where I have to focus my practice attention.
 
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You are crazy trying to play DD completely in 5/4!
;)
I don‘t think that works, but try it.
I think the additional quarter note slows down eighth note sequences too much or takes off the drive.

If you would like to play it in a different meter try 3/4 or in different meters that fit the sections well, which can include 4/4.
You can also try 7/8 cutting an eight note off the 4/4. Or add an eighth note to a 9/8 that you can interpret in different subdivisions.

Good luck!
 
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You are crazy trying to play DD completely in 5/4!
;)
I don‘t think that works, but try it.
I think the additional quarter note slows down eighth note sequences too much or takes off the drive.

If you would like to play it in a different meter try 3/4 or in different meters that fit the sections well, which can include 4/4.
You can also try 7/8 cutting an eight note off the 4/4. Or add an eighth note to a 9/8 that you can interpret in different subdivisions.

Good luck!
I think you're probably right, that it doesn't work in 5/4 but 7/4 might work. 5/4 makes for an interesting bass line; two halves followed by a quarter pickup into the next measure. I think that works nicely with the harmonic progression but not with the melody.
 
I think you're probably right, that it doesn't work in 5/4 but 7/4 might work. 5/4 makes for an interesting bass line; two halves followed by a quarter pickup into the next measure. I think that works nicely with the harmonic progression but not with the melody.
That’s what I thought.

But experiment with meters. You might get a feel what speeds up and what slows down. If nothing works through the whole piece use meters sectionwise.

But at the end, some piece are best in the original meter …

I had a similar but simpler problem with arranging “Elektric City” from the Chick Corea Electric Band for a Salsa Ensemble. It’s both 4/4, but the original is Rock-Jazz (which means more freedom) and my version must fit a clave. I thought the clave was pretty obvious (2-3) but felt that one part (the quieter one) was strange. After a while I found out that it doesn’t fit to the clave. As could not change the clave, I moved some notes by an eighth note forward or backward to fit the clave and now it works, it is just not 100% original. But only listeners who know the piece very well will notice it.
 
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That’s what I thought.

But experiment with meters. You might get a feel what speeds up and what slows down. If nothing works through the whole piece use meters sectionwise.

But at the end, some piece are best in the original meter …

I had a similar but simpler problem with arranging “Elektric City” from the Chick Corea Electric Band for a Salsa Ensemble. It’s both 4/4, but the original is Rock-Jazz (which means more freedom) and my version must fit a clave. I thought the clave was pretty obvious (2-3) but felt that one part (the quieter one) was strange. After a while I found out that it doesn’t fit to the clave. As could not change the clave, I moved some notes by an eighth note forward or backward to fit the clave and now it works, it is just not 100% original. But only listeners who know the piece very well will notice it.
Wise advice, thanks!
 
So, I realize that I mistook compound meters for complex meters. I think that's the correct term. Compound meters are beats that are further subdivided, like 6/8s. Complex meters are meters out of the ordinary, particularly with an odd number of beats. Here's the workshop prep I've done for the topic. Comments and suggestions are always welcome.

Complex and Mixed Meters


Complex meters are meters with a mix of duple and triple meters. Mixed meters are similar but have sections of the tune in more than one meter. For instance, sixteen measures of 4/4 and then the bridge in ¾. Complex meters examples are 5/4, 7/4, etc.

I’ve assembled seven tunes that we can use to explore this concept. Once again, with the intention of making our performances more fun for us and our audience. If there’s interest among the combo, we can explore any or all of them, or not. I do think this is a more esoteric topic and might not appeal to everyone. I’m also a bit out of my depth on this so I’m not sure that some of my arrangements work. I don’t regret the effort though because I learned a lot by doing it.

You’re probably already familiar with Take Five and Dave Brubeck’s albums, Time Out and Time Further Out. Take Five is in 5/4, counted as 3/4 followed by a 2/4 but you can split complex meters any way you like, so 3+2 or 2+3 or 4+1 or 1+4.
upload_2023-10-29_16-51-35.png


I’ve included Take Five and if there’s interest, we can practice it. Here’s a link to the tune on YouTube.

An exercise you might find interesting: During the guitar+bass+drums workshop at Jamey’s camp a few years ago, Corey Christiansen answered a question by suggesting that we play All the Things You Are through a variety of meters. We started in 2/2, then ¾, 4/4, 5/4, 6/4, and finished with 7/4. It was a tough, but fun exercise. The main thing I took away from it was how well AtTYA worked in 7/4. Of course, it worked well in ¾ and 4/4 too, but 2/2, 5/4, and 6/4 weren’t as interesting.

My experience has been that playing in 5/4 and 7/4 isn’t difficult as an accompanist but is challenging to play the melody and solo. The melody’s challenging if I already know the tune in 4/4 or ¾ and now have to add or subtract a beat from what I’m used to. After Corey’s lesson, I introduced the tune, AtTYA in 7/4, to my band at the time and we played it a few times before I abandoned it. The rhythm section was pretty solid but the soloists were incoherent and they weren’t interested enough to practice it, so… not really interested.

Next, is Corey’s AtTYA in 7/4 counted in 4+3. I think that works very well is pretty easy to play and I find it more interesting in 7/4 than 4/4.
upload_2023-10-29_16-54-25.png

and now I see I left out a repeat bar after the intro...

And then Autumn Leaves in 7/4 but reversed from AtTYA and counted as 3+4. I think that also works very well.
upload_2023-10-29_16-55-40.png


Next, All of Me in 5/4, counted as 2+3. I find it interesting and think it works but I’m not sure I’d play it frequently but see how you feel. Here’s a playalong with the bass in two. Here it is with the bass walking.
upload_2023-10-29_16-56-30.png


Then, a challenge, I’ve arranged Dolphin Dance in 5/4 and two versions, one counted as 2+3 and the other as 3+2. I don’t think the 2+3 version works because one of the tune’s concepts is to start on the last half of the measure and either end before the next measure or hit the one in the next measure, so that means that the 3, 4& and the 1-beats are important and the 2+3 version doesn’t maintain that concept. The 3+2 version does a better job and is pretty interesting to me. But, see what you think. Here’s a playalong in 3+2 and the 3+2 version.
upload_2023-10-29_16-57-38.png


upload_2023-10-29_16-58-18.png


And I’ve included an arrangement that one of my teachers arranged – Adam Cohen – that I heard him once when I went to hear his band. I told him how interesting I found his arrangement and he emailed me a pdf. It’s of the Cole Porter tune, I Love You, arranged at first in 4/4 and then switches to a waltz and then switching to a bossa. It also includes a very interesting key change and I like Adam’s arrangement of it. I don’t find it particularly challenging to play but I think it’s a lot of fun and is a cool arrangement.
upload_2023-10-29_16-59-45.png


I’ve made pdfs for everything and playalongs for some. I skipped playalongs for Autumn Leaves and AtTYA because I didn’t think they were necessary but let me know if you’d like one and I’ll see what I can do. I do have playalongs for All of Me, Dolphin Dance – both versions, and I Love You. Unfortunately, I did have to get resourceful in creating the playalongs because, my usual go-to’s, iRealPro and Band in a Box, aren’t up to the task. Neither handle complex meters well. I was able to get I Love You in iRealPro but couldn’t get it in one document and had to split it into two. Here’s page one and here’s page two. Not ideal, but probably workable. For All of Me and Dolphin Dance, the best I could do was add a bass line to the melody and have Finale render a recording. No drums nor harmony and it’s a bit stiff but it gave me a feel for how it could sound, but maybe that’s my bassist bias talking.
 
I would offer the opinion that it is essential to first hear and feel 7/4, in a visceral way, (wayyyy before reading any charts of) ATTYA in 7/4.
Here is a fine example to immerse yourself in, away from any chart...away from an instrument.
A good entryway to immersive/visceral listening is to tap (physically) the subdivision of Half-Note/Half-Note/Dotted Half-Note - 1,2/3,4/5,6,7, throughout this recorded version and see if you can ride this bucking Bronco, without falling off and being trampled.
IMFO, of course.
 
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I would offer the opinion that it is essential to first hear and feel 7/4, in a visceral way, (wayyyy before reading any charts of) ATTYA in 7/4.
Here is a fine example to immerse yourself in, away from any chart...away from an instrument.
A good entryway to immersive/visceral listening is to tap (physically) the subdivision of Half-Note/Half-Note/Dotted Half-Note - 1,2/3,4/5,6,7, throughout this recorded version and see if you can ride this bucking Bronco, without falling off and being trampled.
IMFO, of course.

Dunno man! That's a hell of a tempo!
 
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...
Take Five
is in 5/4, counted as 3/4 followed by a 2/4 but you can split complex meters any way you like, so 3+2 or 2+3 or 4+1 or 1+4.
...

I haven't really seen it mentioned too much, but just in case it gets lost in the (very interesting) noise - it is perfectly normal and reasonable to simply count to 5. There is no compulsion to seek/infer/imply/invent/add anything that isn't there.

IMHO , YMMV, etc