Compressors

[OriginalCrash]

Well, this isn't actually for recordings, but I figured this was the best board for it... We're looking at possibly getting a compressor for the PA at our church (student ministry, actually). Unfortunately, we don't really have a budget... Okay, so we just don't have a budget lol. Anyway, the idea is to find a decent compressor that will do the job at a good price, and then see if it's something we can get approved. Any recommendations? There's the usual Behringer, Nady, ART, etc. that are pretty cheap, but I don't know much about how well they work or how reliable they are. What do you guys recommend at a good price (we'd certainly consider used gear, too)? Thanks for your help.

Brian

 

[seamonkey]

Why do you feel you need a compressor on your PA?

 

[OriginalCrash]

I figured that question would be asked... I should have just answered it in my original post. We're playing in a relatively small room (maybe 150 people if it's packed). We're also playing pretty loudly (two or three guitars, bass, loud drummer, vocals). Anyway, lately we've been trying to figure out what can reasonably be done to cut down on the excessive volume and clean things up a bit. We've already turned all the amps toward the back wall, but a lot of the sound still bounces off that wall (small stage). We're looking into some sort of baffling or curtains for that wall, along with a drum shield. Anyway, the compressor is to help clean up the PA sound. From what I've read, the amps spend a lot of their power on the peaks and spikes in the sound, leaving considerably less power available for the "meat" of the sound. We're looking into a compressor to A) cut down on those loud, surprising noises, like when a clueless youth pastor just drops a mic down on the floor , and B) to compress those spikes so more of the available power can go to the intelligibility of the sound.

Brian

 

[Dave Martin]

Sadly, a compressor will not solve your problems; they have to be solved by the musicians - especially the drummer. I know that's not the answer that you wanted, but if the individual musicians are too loud, the group as a whole will be to loud.

 

[OriginalCrash]

Am I wrong in understanding that if you reduce the peaks of the sound, that frees up some of the power that the amplifier was expending on them to be used for the remaining parts? I'm aware that if the source is too loud, nothing can be done to make it quieter other than turning it down. While that may yet be the problem (it's certainly possible, but I don't think we're just flat out too loud... we certainly used to be, but we've learned to control our volume a lot since then), what we're trying to do is clean up some of the reverberations of the sound through a "hard" room (faux brick paneling on the walls, small stage and little room for the amp/monitor sound to travel before it hits and bounces off the wall) and get the most out of the PA amplifier, hence the compressor.

Brian

 

[Dave Martin]

Reducing the peaks doesn't 'free up power' unless your system is underpowered and distorting. I'm assuming the only thing you have in the PA is vocals, right?

You're talking about sound reflecting off of the walls and ceilings; there are two ways to minimize that; the first is to treat the walls and ceiling so that sound doesn't reflect as readily, and the second is - yep - to turn down. that reduces the amount of energy hitting the walls and ceilings. Try this (or at least think about it - thought experiments can often point in the right direction...): have both of your guitarists play acoustic guitars at your next meeting/service - not plugged in, just acoustically. If the drummer plays quietly enough to hear those two acoustic guitars and your bass is only loud enough to support them, how will the room sound then? Still too live? (I'm actually being generous here - I've done quite a number of church gigs where there is no PA and no amps - a real acoustic gig. With a drummer who knew how to play quietly enough to blend with the group).

I'm guessing here, but I would guess that in your application, you're trying to deliver a message (you know, love and forgiveness), not be arena rock stars. if the band is drowning out the words (which carries the message), then y'all need to reduce the band's volume.

To recap, a compressor won't do what you want. Even a limiter (which is what's needed to reduce peaks) won't do what you want. Only turning down (and helping your drummer learn to play quieter) will do what you want. Bummer, ain't it?

 

[Baleen]

Compression is for lowering the peaks, enabling you to raise the overall volume at the expense of dynamic range. Extreme compression results in more of a wall-of-sound feel with less subtly. As mentioned above, your problem doesn't sound like lack of compression.

What's going to clarify the most (as above) is to reduce the amount of sound in the room. It is possible to play 'full on' softly if you try. Suggest the drummer use Hot Rods (bundled little sticks) to reduce volume. Also, plexiglass shields do help. If you need to, put them in front of the drums and the amps. Though the plexi shields are much more expensive than most of the compressors you were hoping to find the budget for. Maybe you can find them used from a rental place.

Are you able to mic all the instruments with the PA so that you can maybe convince the players to play (volume-wise) for the stage and not the house? Then the PA can be used sparingly to fill in what's needed for clarity.

If you have monitors:
I've achieved great sound by eliminating the guitar and bass amps and going with Line6 Pods or Zoom modeling pedals. Guitarists (arguably, rightly so in the best of cases) will not want to do this, but if you can give them a good monitor mix, making the stage sound good, then you can again use the house PA to fill in the mix for clarity. You can eq the guitars to co-exist peacefully (see recent post about subtractive eq'ing AND assuming that they are playing parts that work together), but most importantly get the overall volume down to a manageable level. Then all that remains is getting the drummer to play at a reasonable dynamic.

Best of luck.

 

[OriginalCrash]

unless your system is underpowered and distorting

the only thing you have in the PA is vocals

Both of those are semi-right. It really depends on the song. The problem isn't that we're insanely loud on all the songs we play. We've done a lot of work in reducing our volume and controlling our dynamics, so there's already been great improvement over the years. But some of our louder, faster songs can still push that little building we're in (when you've got three electric guitars playing at once, well, you know...). Recently, the pastor has taken an interest in trying to get the sound more controlled, and so it's very likely that we may be allowed to get some extra equipment/improvements (in the past, that pretty much wasn't gonna happen... so all that was left for us to do was turn down... not that that's a bad lesson to learn). There are some songs where the volume of the music is loud enough that it's not run through the PA. Sometimes it may just be the bass and kick that are going through it. Other times it may be the full band. The majority of the time, the amps are sufficient, but there are times where we could use a little extra push to get the vocals out there, without just cranking the volume so that those peaks start distorting. That's the reason I was looking at compressors (or limiters, if that would do the job better). We're also looking at a drum shield and some curtains/baffles to control the sound bouncing around the room. So we're not expecting a compressor (or limiter) to be the cure-all. We've already done 80% of the improvement by controlling our volume. Now we're looking to get some of that last 20% by upgrading/adding to the equipment that we have.

Brian

 

[OriginalCrash]

As for the Hot Rods, he does have them and use them on softer songs. Our drummer is certainly capable of playing softly, but when he does play loud, he plays loud... Last night he broke one of his Ahead drumsticks... On that song, Hot Rods wouldn't hold up very well. We are already looking at a drum shield. We haven't looked into any shields for the amps, but as we already have them turned away from the audience, would they still make a significant difference (since most of the amp sound, I believe, is bouncing off that back wall)? All the instruments are miked, but we only have two old monitors that aren't sufficient to run everything through. We are actually looking into building a couple of Bill Fitzmaurice's monitors, though, hoping they'll make a significant difference. If we had a good monitor system, I (don't know about our guitarists) would not mind isolating the amps and running most/all the stage sound through the monitors. Anyway, hopefully that explains what we're trying to do a bit more. Thanks, guys.

Brian

 

[Dave Martin]

I think I'm done on this thread - if the drummer is playing hard enough to break sticks, I'm not surprised that you're having volume issues. If you tiurn your amps to the wall but turn them up loud enough that you can hear them over the drummer, I'm not surprised that you're having volume issues. If you're miking the amps (and, I assume, the drums), I'm not surprised that you're having volume issues.

Someone else is gonna have to tell you how to find a solution.

 

[OriginalCrash]

if the drummer is playing hard enough to break sticks, I'm not surprised that you're having volume issues.

You make it sound as if he's breaking sticks and playing at that volume all the time. He's not.

If you tiurn your amps to the wall but turn them up loud enough that you can hear them over the drummer, I'm not surprised that you're having volume issues.

Again, the drummer is not always playing as loud as he can, far from it. In fact, at times when a song is too loud, the drummer's volume is perfectly acceptable and it's the three competing guitar amps that are too loud. That said, we have each amp turned away from the audience and directed at the ears of that guitarist, to keep the volume down as much as possible. Yeah, sometimes it creeps back up. When it does, we address that.

If you're miking the amps (and, I assume, the drums), I'm not surprised that you're having volume issues.

We mike the amps and the kick drum (but that's it), and I'm running direct. Again, there are times where we do run the music through the PA. There are times where volume is not an issue at all. That said, it's a small building, and we are playing modern, rock-style praise and worship music for youth... So it can get loud. We're not expecting a compressor to solve all the problems. We continue to be conscious of our stage volume. We're looking into a drum shield. We're looking into something to help absorb the sound. Hopefully we'll be getting/building new monitors soon. Are you saying that you think a compressor would be of no value to us? If so, I respect that; I have no doubt you're more knowledgeable on the subject than I am. But I also respect the opinions of some other professionals I've spoken to, who've said otherwise. Again, thanks for all the advice.

Brian

 

[c_joseph_lier]

Here is the deal. I've played in a church band, about the size that you're talking about.

#1 - Volume too loud, turn down. It has been said Soooo much, but it is true. Music is about MUSIC not VOLUME. Great music at a low volume is always better than bad music at a loud volume.

#2 - just because you use a compressor, doesn't mean that your problem is answered. I had a compressor on just the microphones, but i also had vocalists that didn't know how to use a microphone, and chose to swallow the mic, even as a back up.

#3 - the drummer must use those hot rods. breaking sticks happens, and I'm not going to act like i now why it happened in your instance. but, everyone is trying to match his (or hers) volume. control the drummer, or the volume will continue to run away.

This is just advise, and you can take it or leave it, but, i got frustrated in my situation, because everyone else wanted to be louder, and finally, after months of trying to convince them to lower it, I walked away. be professional and lead the group. Don't suggest anything. Tell them what needs to be done. Bass Players are natural leaders, but sometimes, you cannot lead your army if they don't beleive.

 

[bassbrock]

Hey Brian, to answer your original question...

I've found the Behringer Composer Pro compressor to be absolutely fantastic. It as an automatic mode that automatically and dynamically adjusts attack and release to fit the particular audio signal at the time.

So if you are playing hard rock, the attack and release is harder. If you are playing slow worship, the attack and release is slower.

I'm personally of the opinion that every PA system needs at least some mild compression to help even out the sound a bit. *Especially* if the PA is only used to amplify the vocalists. They can easily get lost in the mix without some compression.

If you have no budget I've found American Musical Supply to be the best place to buy. You only need 1/3rd the price of the item up front to buy it. Then they'll bill you over 60 days for the other two payments. It's their EZ pay plan. But thats only for items $300 and up.

Here's a link to the Behringer compressor on AMS:
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And to address the issues of sound reflections, I'd say try some bass traps/broadband absorbers.

In our chuch, we've put up about 30 (yes 30) 4" 2x4 ft 8lb density mineral wool panels all around the room and on the back wall of the stage too. The room is still "live" sounding so it isn't completely dead, but it sounds FANTASTIC!

 

[bluestarbass]

Mic the drumkit, put him behind a shield. Mic all the guitar amps, put them in isolation cabs. Let the FOH control the volume. Churches are natoriously boomy. Treating the room would help. Without spending gobs of money turning down is the only option. A compressor sounds like the last thing youd need.

 

[bassbrock]

Mic the drumkit, put him behind a shield. Mic all the guitar amps, put them in isolation cabs. Let the FOH control the volume. Churches are natoriously boomy. Treating the room would help. Without spending gobs of money turning down is the only option. A compressor sounds like the last thing youd need.

Based off what he's wrote, I'd say that the problem is the vocals getting lost in the mix. A compressor is the first thing he'd need to help fix that problem.

Why is everyone pointing to volume and not answering the guy's original question? Give 'em a break!

He's already stated several times in the above posts that over the last several *years* they have attacked the volume problem.

 

[OriginalCrash]

Thanks, bassbrock. While volume is still an issue from time to time, that's something that we already and continue to deal with and control. The compressor is, as you said, to supplement that by giving the vocals a little extra ability to cut through and be heard. Of course, we don't want to be too loud, and we continue to make a conscious effort not to be. But we also play for the youth... While the occasional acoustic set is a cool thing, they do like it loud. And so we want to play the music and lead worship in such a way that it won't be a distraction (whether because it's too loud or too soft)... Which means playing some softer stuff and some faster, louder songs. That said, finally, even when we're playing louder, we obviously don't want it to be too loud and we want it to sound good. So that's why we continue to control the volume and are now looking into a way to get the vocals to cut through better.

Brian

 

[bassbrock]

Good points. I can agree that too low of a volume in church can also be a distraction to people.

Some people don't like to hear themselves sing when they are worshipping. They are too self conscious of their own voice and therefore can't focus on the spirit.

So yeah, look into that cheap Behringer compressor. It might not be a lot of $$$, but I can vouch that it is a FANTASTIC sounding compressor. Both for live and studio work. We own three of them! Two for our four vocalists, and one on the overall mix hitting the mains.

 

[Dave Martin]

Why is everyone pointing to volume and not answering the guy's original question? Give 'em a break!

He's already stated several times in the above posts that over the last several *years* they have attacked the volume problem.

I pointed at volume because volume is the problem. Compression won't help bring the vocals out if the band is too loud on stage, and for damn sure, I would NEVER EVER put a Berhinger compressor on any audio. Never.

You know, for many, many years, musicians had to balance themselves on stage because there were no monitors (and nothing but vocals were in the PA. These guys simply have to learn to do that - and that means turning it down.

One of my regular band gigs typically plays for between 200-1000 people (private parties). Nothing goes through the small PA except vocals and acoustic guitar, and there's either one or two monitors (one mix, of course) that has the vocals and acoustic guitar in it. We use a 300 or 400 watt Powered PA head for a thousand people in a ballroom; for many years, the late Conway Twitty did shows in arenas - using two Shure Vocalmaster PA heads and 4 Vocal Master columns. . And even with 8 or 10 thousand people in the arena, everyone could hear Conway and the band. (I think a Vocalmaster was 200 watts, by the way).

Neither the band I mentioned or Conway Twitty uses compressors on live gigs (Well, Conway doesn't do live gigs since he's not alive...). Despite the fact that he doesn't want to hear it, my experience tells me that the original poster needs to fix his problems at the source - that is the musicians.

Teach the singers how to work a microphone, teach the musicians how to play so that they don't drown out the singers and the problem's solved. Stick one of the two worst sounding compressors ever made into the signal path, and not only is the original problem not solved, but a host of other issues have been introduced.

 

[Dave Martin]

So yeah, look into that cheap Behringer compressor. It might not be a lot of $$$, but I can vouch that it is a FANTASTIC sounding compressor. Both for live and studio work. We own three of them! Two for our four vocalists, and one on the overall mix hitting the mains.

Dude. Honestly. I mean, really. Do you actually pass audio through those things And you bought more after you bought the first one and heard it? Yikes!

Have you ever had the chance to hear a decent compressor? I'm sorry - what are you comparing your Behringer units to when you say that they're 'fantastic'? Jeez.

 

[bassbrock]

Oh no! I'm being flamed for taking up for the guy! Dave, I thought you were through with this thread man...

Your tone stinks dude.

Regardless of your opinion of Behringer, they make some pretty darn good stuff. Stuff that if you A/B'd it with gear costing thousands more, you'd be like "Whoa!" And yes, I've done that. Personally, I'm not a gear snob. Have you used a Behringer Composer Pro? Check out some reviews, it's actually one of the best compressors on the market for studio vocals. Or are you one of those people that won't touch it simply because it's cheap and it says "Behringer" on it? Lame.

I've come to the realization that it's all made in China anyway. Why pay a premium for the same components, made in the same place, from someone else? If it sounds good, buy it.

As an example, I sold my 1977 Nuemman U87 and replaced it with two Behringer B2 Pros and a couple dozen other mics. I got $3500 for the U87 on eBay.

And no, before you ask, I'm not deaf.