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Concerts where the bass sounds lousy

g-dude

g-dude

Apr 20, 2018
8,208
25,421
Hiding under my desk
#1
So for the first time in forever (and now you have that song from Frozen stuck in your head), I managed to get out to see some live music.

Popular band with a long track record - tickets were $60 for GA standing and who knows how much for seats. Venue was probably the largest 100% indoor venue in the market - can hold over 5,000 people. Probably wasn't at capacity, but certainly was well filled and they played two nights in a row.

First time hearing this band, so absolutely no background with them. Friend invited me and I decided I'd try something new. Band was good.

The sound...well, initially it was a bit out of balance. Too much in the way of Hammond, not enough guitar, but as the set progressed, the sound got better and you could actually hear the electric guitar. From where we were standing, the volume was actually decent in terms of it wasn't painfully loud (I forgot my earplugs).

The bass was a hot mass though.

I assume the bassist is good. But I couldn't actually tell what he was playing. It was basically loud amorphous bass rumble, and just muddy as hell. I could even hear the occasional PA speaker farting out.

For a top-tier venue, how much of that can be blamed on the sound guy, and how much on the bassist's own personal choices?

Or are they both to blame?
 
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#3
Any concert where the subs are placed under the mains on the sides of the stage in a non-directional array.

It's not the artist's fault.

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#9
It's a complicated, multi-faceted problem. I'll try to give you a basic understanding.

Acoustics in a large venue tend to have a long decay time that allows the lows to rumble around and build up. If acoustics are the problem, the correct solution is acoustic design and treatment, which is mostly beyond the audio tech's purview. In some instances the audio company may hang sound absorbent material.

What the audio tech can do:
1. Spec a system that is big enough and sophisticated enough to keep most of the sound focused on the audience. This is not an easy task for low frequencies. Control over low frequencies requires large arrays, and it's not a perfect solution.
2. Aim and tune the system. Aiming is to keep as much sound as possible of the walls and ceiling. Tuning relates to time/phase aligning different speaker elements and dialing in the desired frequency response contour.
3. Minimize the amount of energy pumped into the room at problem frequencies. This is part tuning the system and part analyzing the current situation and choosing the compromise you think best suits your priorities (artistic choice).

As the acoustics get more and more unsuitable for amplified music, the size and quality of the system, and how it is configured and tuned have less impact.

When acoustics are truly bad, the audio tech can choose between very lean low or present lows that are essentially incoherent. When there is excess build up of low frequencies it tends to mask frequencies higher in the spectrum. So I tend to choose running very lean on bass (my artistic choice).

Few large venues have acoustics that are great for amplified music. Some are better than others.

The musician also have a role. In order for the PA to have control over the lows, it needs to be significantly louder than the low frequency wash coming off the stage. The problem goes both ways. For the musicians to have the best sound, their amps and monitors must be significantly louder on stage than the low frequency wash coming back from the PA. This often results in a catch 22, where nobody can have a perfect mix. It takes a large and fairly sophisticated PA to force most of the lows forward while limiting how much low frequency energy is directed on stage. Also, space constraints often prevent realizing such a system.
 
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#13
I was at a show a couple years ago where one opening band's sound was not good -- you could hear the singer and the drum kit but hardly anything else, and even they were kind of blasted out and muddy. The next band and the headliner both had perfect, crisp sound -- genuinely better than I'd expect at a rock and electronics show. Each act used the same system, possibly aside from each having their own mixing boards.

Top-notch equipment can't save an act from their (or their engineer's) worst decisions.
 
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#14
ardgedee said:
I was at a show a couple years ago where one opening band's sound was not good -- you could hear the singer and the drum kit but hardly anything else, and even they were kind of blasted out and muddy. The next band and the headliner both had perfect, crisp sound -- genuinely better than I'd expect at a rock and electronics show. Each act used the same system, possibly aside from each having their own mixing boards.

Top-notch equipment can't save an act from their (or their engineer's) worst decisions.
Click to expand...
That and the opener(s) can't sound/look better than the headliner.
 
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#16
Most of the shows I've been to in recent years where the bass guitar is an indistinct blur it's because somebody decided the kick needs to sound like an 808 or similar (aka Kick Drum of Death), even if it's not appropriate for the genre. There's a reason why in hip hop with that 808 kick thing going on, that is the bass. Shoehorning that into a rock mix with bass guitar is usually a disaster.
 
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#17
LowendG said:
Most of the shows I've been to in recent years where the bass guitar is an indistinct blur it's because somebody decided the kick needs to sound like an 808, even if it's not appropriate for the genre. There's a reason why in hip hop with that 808 kick thing going on, that is the bass. Shoehorning that into a rock mix with bass guitar is usually a disaster.
Click to expand...
For the last probably 10 years or so there seems to be a trend in mixing that thinks the main sounds need to be bass and drums. To the point they're so loud that they aren't clear. Even if the group is mainly a vocal act. An example. We went to Pat Benetar not long ago. That's one woman that can belt out a vocal. Most of the songs you could hardly tell she was singing. But you could hear and feel the bass and kick drum!
 
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#18
Wasnex said:
It's a complicated, multi-faceted problem. I'll try to give you a basic understanding.

Acoustics in a large venue tend to have a long decay time that allows the lows to rumble around and build up. If acoustics are the problem, the correct solution is acoustic design and treatment, which is mostly beyond the audio tech's purview. In some instances the audio company may hang sound absorbent material.

What the audio tech can do:
1. Spec a system that is big enough and sophisticated enough to keep most of the sound focused on the audience. This is not an easy task for low frequencies. Control over low frequencies requires large arrays, and it's not a perfect solution.
2. Aim and tune the system. Aiming is to keep as much sound as possible of the walls and ceiling. Tuning relates to time/phase aligning different speaker elements and dialing in the desired frequency response contour.
3. Minimize the amount of energy pumped into the room at problem frequencies. This is part tuning the system and part analyzing the current situation and choosing the compromise you think best suits your priorities (artistic choice).

As the acoustics get more and more unsuitable for amplified music, the size and quality of the system, and how it is configured and tuned have less impact.

When acoustics are truly bad, the audio tech can choose between very lean low or present lows that are essentially incoherent. When there is excess build up of low frequencies it tends to mask frequencies higher in the spectrum. So I tend to choose running very lean on bass (my artistic choice).

Few large venues have acoustics that are great for amplified music. Some are better than others.

The musician also have a role. In order for the PA to have control over the lows, it needs to be significantly louder than the low frequency wash coming off the stage. The problem goes both ways. For the musicians to have the best sound, their amps and monitors must be significantly louder on stage than the low frequency wash coming back from the PA. This often results in a catch 22, where nobody can have a perfect mix. It takes a large and fairly sophisticated PA to force most of the lows forward while limiting how much low frequency energy is directed on stage. Also, space constraints often prevent realizing such a system.
Click to expand...
In your experience, when touring acts play in basketball arenas, are they more often using their own sound techs who tour with them or using local sound techs who mix performances in that particular local arena regularly?
 
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#20
SteveC said:
That and the opener(s) can't sound/look better than the headliner.
Click to expand...


The opener may not get a sufficient sound and I have actually seen concerts where the PA was throttled for the opening act. Perhaps ironically on the example that comes to mind where the PA was throttled back, the opening act sounded great and I thought the headliner sounded awful, although way louder. The audio tech for the headliner pushed the system well into distortion
 
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