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Confessions of a flatwound convert pt 2.
- Thread starter john turner
- Start date
This is a great point, much overrated. When you play with rounds, often you boost bass eq to get the fundamental you need on stage. However, you are as boomy as hell through the massive subs the club is using, and the engineer has to turn you down and you lose place in the mix. Playing with flats gives you more fundamental as part of their tone, and then you can leave the eq alone, thus giving the soundguy more to work with so he can keep you in the mix.
Thanks all. I can hardly take any credit for that which was already there. I just put my thoughts out there for people to consider, since so much tone quests seem to be travelling down far more expensive paths (basses, amps, etc.) but seldom did I read much about string selection.
Who knew it would spark such a debate or discussion? I certainly didn't, but it obviously struck a chord (no pun intended
) with many.
Sorry, no recordings of my cover band...we don't record. However I am putting a blues band together and we will be recording so I'll be sure to post something whenever I have it. Could be a while.
Carry on.
Who knew it would spark such a debate or discussion? I certainly didn't, but it obviously struck a chord (no pun intended
) with many.Sorry, no recordings of my cover band...we don't record. However I am putting a blues band together and we will be recording so I'll be sure to post something whenever I have it. Could be a while.
Carry on.
Resurrecting...
I played a fill in, last minute, mystery list gig on the Saturday before Halloween. I knew the list would include some country, pop, rock, jazz, disco, folk. I brought my Jazz V w/flats and used my SVT II Pro through my Ampeg 410.
We were not loud - loud enough, but not loud. There were 2 acoustic guitars (6 and 12 string) + 1 lead player and a rock-solid, kick-ass 3-part vocal harmony, a pocket-centric drummer.
From the first note we sounded like we'd played together forever. The groove was dead on. Everyone's attitude and ethic were in sync. The drummer and I locked without even thinking about it and the two guys who ran this band and hired us were obviously jazzed after the first few notes - and it only got better with each song.
We played everything from Keith Urban, Kenny Chesny and that Chicken Fried dude... (all of whom I'd never listened to or hear before) - to Led Zeppelin - Even Suite Judy Blue eyes by CSN (again, never played before it sounded AMAZING!) -
They just called up song after song - many were easy enough due to familiarity - a few we just eye-balled frets and mouthed chords at each other - some we just made up entirely - at least I did... ;-)
But it was a 100% blast! Perfect gig! Comped food, drinks, a paycheck, great crowd, great players, honestly... you almost couldn't ask for more!
All this setup just to say that I think I had the best night both playing and sound-wise that I've probably ever had and a HUGE part of the sound and feel was a direct result of playing with flats through that nice, warm rig! It all felt SO genuine - Hell, we even played John freakin' Denver! - But every song had that honest, authentic feel both sonically and grovically and those flats just felt and sounded so right!
Now I still enjoy my rounds sound - but man... I have a hard time believing everything would have been so perfect without those flats providing the bass groove!
I played a fill in, last minute, mystery list gig on the Saturday before Halloween. I knew the list would include some country, pop, rock, jazz, disco, folk. I brought my Jazz V w/flats and used my SVT II Pro through my Ampeg 410.
We were not loud - loud enough, but not loud. There were 2 acoustic guitars (6 and 12 string) + 1 lead player and a rock-solid, kick-ass 3-part vocal harmony, a pocket-centric drummer.
From the first note we sounded like we'd played together forever. The groove was dead on. Everyone's attitude and ethic were in sync. The drummer and I locked without even thinking about it and the two guys who ran this band and hired us were obviously jazzed after the first few notes - and it only got better with each song.
We played everything from Keith Urban, Kenny Chesny and that Chicken Fried dude... (all of whom I'd never listened to or hear before) - to Led Zeppelin - Even Suite Judy Blue eyes by CSN (again, never played before it sounded AMAZING!) -
They just called up song after song - many were easy enough due to familiarity - a few we just eye-balled frets and mouthed chords at each other - some we just made up entirely - at least I did... ;-)
But it was a 100% blast! Perfect gig! Comped food, drinks, a paycheck, great crowd, great players, honestly... you almost couldn't ask for more!
All this setup just to say that I think I had the best night both playing and sound-wise that I've probably ever had and a HUGE part of the sound and feel was a direct result of playing with flats through that nice, warm rig! It all felt SO genuine - Hell, we even played John freakin' Denver! - But every song had that honest, authentic feel both sonically and grovically and those flats just felt and sounded so right!
Now I still enjoy my rounds sound - but man... I have a hard time believing everything would have been so perfect without those flats providing the bass groove!
Yeah, I hear you. I am as guilty as the next guy when it comes to appreciating all the new, latest and greatest technological advancements in bass gear.
But sometimes, just simplfiying and going back to our (collective) roots as bass players, there is just something so sublime about just laying down a groove on flats. Tonally, it's like tripping in some kind of altered state because we've all become so tone conscious and hip to the latest gear that to go backwards (to a time when flats were all there was) seems so counterintuitive.
I'm exhausted from reading half of the previous thread and then this one. Great topic and responses.
I'll stop using flats when I see a roundwound bass drum with sustain.
Same story here. In the 60's flats were all there was at first. Then came Rotosound, Entwistle, Squire etc. and I went with 'em. Only to return to flats as I matured.
Go on YouTube and check out the clips. Somebody's house with a guy slapping roundwounds and getting a tin can sound out. Whoppeedoo. I fall asleep after 4 bars. If it's Wooten it's ok but that's what he does.
As said in here, if it's a wedding, club or whatever who wants to listen to that? Or chords on a 6-string.
What strings tho'?
Sure it's subjective and personal but TBer opinions count to us! Being in Oz I can't try out gear like those in the US can. TBer and luthier advice is what I value (thanks KenJ). As well as trying a lot of gear out too.
I've settled on Sadowsky for my basses. I started with Sad nickel rounds then tried Sad light flats. Jeez they're bright. Close to rounds IMO. With my Markbass amp, a 1x15 and a 2x10 they sing out and I have to cut back on harmonics and mid-treble. Sounds odd solo'd but great in the mix (which is what matters).
I'd just like more thump and less poke.
So I'm trying TI flats. Only 1 gauge so I had to file the nut for the .130" B. At home they sound different. The D and G more musical to my ear, A about the same3 but E and B seem quiet so far at low volume. I'll try out properly at the weekend. Non-tapered B now too.
I nearly didn't get the TI's due to a lot posts here on tension. Can't say I've noticed yet but early days.
If the TI's don't work out then Chromes next I guess. Some things we have to work out ourselves.
Gee, this is a good thread. A lot of experience here.
PS: don't tell everyone about flats; it won't be good for the string makers and we'll all sound the same as each other (like the rounwound slappers do today). Shhhh.
I'll stop using flats when I see a roundwound bass drum with sustain.
Same story here. In the 60's flats were all there was at first. Then came Rotosound, Entwistle, Squire etc. and I went with 'em. Only to return to flats as I matured.
Go on YouTube and check out the clips. Somebody's house with a guy slapping roundwounds and getting a tin can sound out. Whoppeedoo. I fall asleep after 4 bars. If it's Wooten it's ok but that's what he does.
As said in here, if it's a wedding, club or whatever who wants to listen to that? Or chords on a 6-string.
What strings tho'?
Sure it's subjective and personal but TBer opinions count to us! Being in Oz I can't try out gear like those in the US can. TBer and luthier advice is what I value (thanks KenJ). As well as trying a lot of gear out too.
I've settled on Sadowsky for my basses. I started with Sad nickel rounds then tried Sad light flats. Jeez they're bright. Close to rounds IMO. With my Markbass amp, a 1x15 and a 2x10 they sing out and I have to cut back on harmonics and mid-treble. Sounds odd solo'd but great in the mix (which is what matters).
I'd just like more thump and less poke.
So I'm trying TI flats. Only 1 gauge so I had to file the nut for the .130" B. At home they sound different. The D and G more musical to my ear, A about the same3 but E and B seem quiet so far at low volume. I'll try out properly at the weekend. Non-tapered B now too.
I nearly didn't get the TI's due to a lot posts here on tension. Can't say I've noticed yet but early days.
If the TI's don't work out then Chromes next I guess. Some things we have to work out ourselves.
Gee, this is a good thread. A lot of experience here.
PS: don't tell everyone about flats; it won't be good for the string makers and we'll all sound the same as each other (like the rounwound slappers do today). Shhhh.
I hope you like the TI flats. They are pretty bright when you first string em up, but mellow out really nicely. I find that they sit GREAT in a mix. I also use Sadowsky basses and just love the combination of Sad + TI Flat. TI's have more sustain than the usual flats, but still have more fundamental than any round. Please post back with your impressions.
This is the sound I have long played with. My first bass had flatwounds on it and my dad's '77 Fender P-bass had half-wounds on it. I have had several basses with roundwounds on them and have used them all live in a church. The roundwounds are terrible in the mix. I really like the sound that Joe Osborne got with his Jazz bass when he recorded with the Carpenters. I think he was using flats. If I had to use roundwounds I boosted the bass and treble on the eq and cut the mid and I rolled my tone control on the bass all the way back. I am gassing for a late 70's Fender P 
and it will definitely have flats on it. Couple that with Ampeg, and....
and it will definitely have flats on it. Couple that with Ampeg, and....
You Betcha! There is a reason that the "Joe "Osborn" signature strings from laklan are flats! (he also played with a pick)
Had a 4 hour test today and the TI's are quite a bit different from the light Sadowsky flats they replaced.
G string seems to pop out very loud halfway up the neck and up. Almost scared to use it and had to change my touch when I did.
B was quieter by a long way, especiall at low volume. The Sad B was tapered and more even with the other strings than the TIs but it didn't get a lot of use.
G and D seemed fuller maybe even tho' the TI gauge is similar to Sad lights on these strings. E and A were both good and comparable.
The Sadowskys were clearer all the way across and I had to shut the harmonics up and add some bass.
The TIs gave me more thump lowdown which is why I bought them. BP mag had a string review a while back with TIs bassier and Sads toppier which influenced me.
At volume the TIs sure thump on my J5.
Tension? Floppy? I didn't notice a thing. So why all the "I can't play TI's" posts? I don't get that.
Maybe it's just me. The TIs do seem to amplify any fretting scuffs etc. I make. Less forgiving? Maybe that's just me too.
Both sets are very good and recommended. I didn't think the Sadowsky's could be beat but the TIs are worth trying for what I want. I'll see if they do 'wear in' after a while.
I don't think I'll bother with La Bellas or Chromes for a while.
I was using rounds for the longest time, and have to agree that when I switched to halfrounds(was gunshy about going to full flats) I noticed an increase in volume, well fundamental volume anyway, it seemed clearer and louder, I had to turn the bass on my amp down! Now I am totaly gassing for the T.I. flats, I just feel like they will be more of a good thing. better fundamental, thumpier, bassier!?! I hope so. The D'addario half rounds I have now did feel real sticky when I first put them on, about a month later they were fine and totaly broke in. I mostly play rock and classic rock with fingers, but there are quite a few songs I prefer to use a pick for(rancid and more punk type stuff) which still sounds great on the halfies. And I just love the feel too!
Great feedback! I have never used Sad flats so I can't comment there. What I like about TI flats is what you mentions, how full the D and G are. Since I use the SAME bass for country, and rock stuff which is all about groove, AND for high-filuting jazz stuff where I am doing bebop solo's in the 16-24 fret range, the TI flats deliver the tone in all these respects.
I have found that the D and G string DISAPPEAR in the mix with rounds but with flats, and TI flats in particular, the D and G really sing through, and they sustain enough for leads and solos.
I don't know why the high notes on your g string were popping out. My Suggestion: try setting the Eq on your amp flat. Since these strings are so midrange present, you could have an eq setting for the Sad's that doesn't work with ti's. All I do is boost high-mid and low-mid and treble just a click or two.
cheers!
I also don't get the "too floppy to play" line. For the TI jazz rounds I can kind of see this, but the flats feel great once you adjust to em.
I used my Markbass Tube with everything flat for starters. Same on the bass - all flat and what I wrote is what I got out.
I think I was just surprised how loud and clear the G and D are, especially compared to the B which I feel more than hear. But then that's what I wanted!
High strings that sing out and low strings that shake the floor and blend with the kick drum.
A decent (if not marriage made in heaven) mix I'd say (but of course, not for everyone).
Thanks for your feedback too.
Well, I do tend to agree that notes on the B string aren't as present as one could like. I have been considering putting a Chrome B string on for that reason. I use the B string a lot in the 5-12 fret range so I can play in position and not use open strings and the TI B works well for this except the extreme gauge makes intonation difficult. you don't really notice it until you record something.
not three days ago, I fell back to rounds on my (only) bass. I don't know what posessed me (maybe a Rush marathon I gave myself during last week), but as I changed the strings, I somehow knew it wouldn't work. Guess what. I played one hour and was done with it. Hated the sound, the feel. Yesterday I changed back to my good old Labellas, and the sound was back! Even my wife, who has been a reluctant company on my quest for tone, commented "last night you sounded boring and lifeless, honey". That, right there, made me think that this "going back to rounds" thing was a huge mistake. I'm a Flatwound guy. End of story.
Thanks to Talkbass I use flats (Chromes medium guage) for everything, even picking and slapping. I suppose my ears have been retrained, but I think everything sounds better with flats.
I'm a long time roundwounds user and I wanted to try flats. I bought a set of TI Jazz Flats (I like TI Superalloy rounds, so I figured that TI flats would also sound good for me) and strung my NT Streamer. They sounded pretty nice at home, but at rehearsal I was somewhat disappointed.
At first, a good thing - the band sounded cleaner, guitar and vocal were heard better. The bass was still there, but...
Here start things not as good. Too much sustain - where's the punch? The bass growls alone, but along with band only the fundamental is left making my bass hard to be heard by bandmates (I was asked twice to raise volume).
I can use bridge pickup and treble boost to add loads of definition, but it just doesn't feel right to me.
Of course, I won't give up after first try, but I need some wise suggestions.
At first, a good thing - the band sounded cleaner, guitar and vocal were heard better. The bass was still there, but...
Here start things not as good. Too much sustain - where's the punch? The bass growls alone, but along with band only the fundamental is left making my bass hard to be heard by bandmates (I was asked twice to raise volume).
I can use bridge pickup and treble boost to add loads of definition, but it just doesn't feel right to me.
Of course, I won't give up after first try, but I need some wise suggestions.
