Connecting Mesa Powerhouse bass cabs

[N4860]

I can confirm that an 8 Ohm PH212 and 8 Ohm PH410 actually sound quite nice together. I've driven mine with a number of heads (including all three Carbine models) and they did not sound stressed in any way.

I'm running an M6 Carbine into a PH610 and can't ever imagine needing any more power. Pretty sure I have to run the volume at almost the lowest audible point and it is louder than everyone else in the band. I literally turn the master from completely off and just when it kicks in is band volume. Playing festival gigs is great for this setup. Just so much power for the outdoors.

 

[dwade]

That's not in series.........................
it's still parallel.

 

[baxter_x]

Pretty sure I have to run the volume at almost the lowest audible point and it is louder than everyone else in the band.

That was my main issue with my M9. The taper was almost unusable.

 

[NKBassman]

My amp seems to be underwhelmed with the 4x10, I can't get a good bang out of it. It's got volume, but it's not "LOUD". (Before you ask, yes, the attenuator dial is "turned off" - no attenuation present.) I'm still cranking my volume all the way to 7-8 on the amp and it's not loud? I'm not sure I'm dealing with this amp the right way then.

Speaking of which - if I use amp into 4x10, but connect 1x 1/4" cable from left output to cab input, AND 1x 1/4" cable from right output to cab parallel out -- does the parallel out need to be connected and if so, does it attenuate the volume levels being output?

I didn't read the whole thread, so I'm not sure if this has been mentioned already (it hasn't)

Where do you have your Gain set on the amp? With the Ampeg SVT-3 (or at least IME with the 3PRO), you should turn the gain knob up until the "Clip" light is flashing good and strong on every note. Don't be afraid of the Clip light, think of it as a Signal Indicator or something. The Clip light is your friend. It lets you know when you have sufficient gain. If it's not flashing at all, turn it up until you see that red light come on. It's not going to hurt anything.

The other thing you could do is bring your amp in to a reputable tech for a service checkup. Have him check that all of the preamp tubes are working strong, and that the power amp bias is set correctly. It is not uncommon to read about the power amp bias on the SVT3 drifting over time. Note that I've read this 100 times on this forum: the bias adjustment is extremely sensitive, and unless you have oodles of experience servicing amps and electronics, it's not recommended that you take this biasing procedure on yourself.

ANYWAY... I used to run with a 3PRO and a single 8 ohm 410 cab for many years, competing with a super loud drummer and two 100W+ 4x12 guitars. I never had any trouble being heard. That's not to say that your situation isn't different from mine. But... I thought the above points re. the amp were worth mentioning. Could be a simple fix is required on the amp. Or at the very least you can get some peace of mind that the amp is indeed working properly.

Either of the patching options in your original post are fine. Nothing you do is going to attenuate the signal. However, don't hook up two amp outputs to the same cab. One connection to each cabinet, either using both outputs from the head or daisy chained between the cabs. Makes no difference. I always preferred independent connections to each cabinet because in my mind that was more redundant.

 

[couzin2000]

This is for the possible benefit of anyone who may read this thread:

couzin2000, the message from Garey Noble at Mesa says, "Please let me know if you have any questions or need assistance in any way". You may not have any questions, sir, but that's just because you need assistance and don't know it. The response from Garey Noble at Mesa is not exactly in the same vain as aged horse's message # 21.

I'm not going to re-read this entire thread. As far as I can tell, you need assistance understanding why it's a bad idea to run an 8 ohm 4 X 10 cab with an 8 ohm 2 X 10 cab. That is what you are proposing in your original post. Anybody who reads this thread should understand that there are scientific formulas that specify how much power loudspeakers receive depending on their impedance and how they are connected.

In your setup, if you connect an 8 ohm 4 X 10 cab to your particular bass head, each loudspeaker will receive 50 watts.

In your setup, if you connect an 8 ohm 4 X 10 cab in parallel with an 8 ohm 2 X 10 cab:

1) Each loudspeaker in the 2 X 10 cab will receive 75 watts.

2) Each loudspeaker in the 4 X 10 cab will receive 37.5 watts.

Ideally, in a 6 X 10 array, you want each loudspeaker to receive an equal amount of power. Is that what's happening with a 2 X 10 and a 4 X 10 connected in parallel to your bass head? No, it is not. Why not? To know the answer to that question you need to learn some electronics theory. No biggie. Good luck.

NevadaPete, I appreciate reading about this. Please explain the "electronics theory" you're referring to. I wanna have a setup that will be appropriate, balanced, and also undamaged. This is why I am asking all of you guys this info - I'm humble enough to say I don't know what I'm talking about.
So, please, without judging or preaching, can you please help out? I'd like to make sure I'm not buying a cab that I'll f*** up at the first note I play through it. Thank you.

 

[couzin2000]

I didn't read the whole thread, so I'm not sure if this has been mentioned already (it hasn't)

Where do you have your Gain set on the amp? With the Ampeg SVT-3 (or at least IME with the 3PRO), you should turn the gain knob up until the "Clip" light is flashing good and strong on every note. Don't be afraid of the Clip light, think of it as a Signal Indicator or something. The Clip light is your friend. It lets you know when you have sufficient gain. If it's not flashing at all, turn it up until you see that red light come on. It's not going to hurt anything.

The other thing you could do is bring your amp in to a reputable tech for a service checkup. Have him check that all of the preamp tubes are working strong, and that the power amp bias is set correctly. It is not uncommon to read about the power amp bias on the SVT3 drifting over time. Note that I've read this 100 times on this forum: the bias adjustment is extremely sensitive, and unless you have oodles of experience servicing amps and electronics, it's not recommended that you take this biasing procedure on yourself.

ANYWAY... I used to run with a 3PRO and a single 8 ohm 410 cab for many years, competing with a super loud drummer and two 100W+ 4x12 guitars. I never had any trouble being heard. That's not to say that your situation isn't different from mine. But... I thought the above points re. the amp were worth mentioning. Could be a simple fix is required on the amp. Or at the very least you can get some peace of mind that the amp is indeed working properly.

Either of the patching options in your original post are fine. Nothing you do is going to attenuate the signal. However, don't hook up two amp outputs to the same cab. One connection to each cabinet, either using both outputs from the head or daisy chained between the cabs. Makes no difference. I always preferred independent connections to each cabinet because in my mind that was more redundant.

NKBassman, thanks, yes I know about the gain and clip light. I play everything through a compressor and know how to make sure my gain is sufficient, even though I do compress at ratios your momma wouldn't like

As far as the amp goes, as mentioned before it has been rebuilt by (IMHO) one of the best techs around to its factory standards... as in "the way it was when it was first boxed". So that's taken care of.
Now I understand the way to connect them, I was never privy to that kind of info before.... kinda like our early heroes trying different new things to connect it and not know what to expect. So since I don't have the cash to blow on an experiment on a cab, I prefer to ask you guys

 

[agedhorse]

It's not that you will damage the cabinet (210), because the power levels are low enough that it's not an issue, but because you will jot be getting the increased performance that you are hoping for.

 

[couzin2000]

That sir is good to know!

Is there such a thing as a BASS PH212? This is new to me. I had no idea.

 

[agedhorse]

NKBassman, thanks, yes I know about the gain and clip light. I play everything through a compressor and know how to make sure my gain is sufficient, even though I do compress at ratios your momma wouldn't like

As far as the amp goes, as mentioned before it has been rebuilt by (IMHO) one of the best techs around to its factory standards... as in "the way it was when it was first boxed". So that's taken care of.
Now I understand the way to connect them, I was never privy to that kind of info before.... kinda like our early heroes trying different new things to connect it and not know what to expect. So since I don't have the cash to blow on an experiment on a cab, I prefer to ask you guys

Very heavy compression may decrease the perception of volume by removing some of the dynamic parts that we perceive as volume, especially if there is a lack of make-up gain after the compressor. Try backing off on the compression.

 

[oldrocker]

Best advice on this thread, from @agedhorse, is that if you want to maximize what your amp can produce, get yourself a single 4 ohm 410 cab. The only benefit I can see from your scheme of having an 8 ohm 210 as well as the 8 ohm 410 is that you'll probably be able to use the 210 for a good percentage of your gigs, and it'll be an easier load in. But no advantage (and it looks like from his advice, possibly a disadvantage) from using both the 8 ohm 210 and 410 cabs together.

I've played a Mesa Powerhouse 4x10 with an Eden 210XLT on top. Effective 4 ohm load driven by an Eden WT800B. The difference with the 2 cabs than just the 4x10 is that it moves more air. It also gets the 2x10 closer to ear level.

The 2 cabs together was much louder than just the 4x10 with the same amp. It was overkill for most situations so I didn't run to 2 cabs together that often.

YMMV

 

[NKBassman]

Is there such a thing as a BASS PH212? This is new to me. I had no idea.

All the Mesa Powerhouse cabs are bass cabs.

 

[couzin2000]

Very heavy compression may decrease the perception of volume by removing some of the dynamic parts that we perceive as volume, especially if there is a lack of make-up gain after the compressor. Try backing off on the compression.

I will do that (moving down from a 6:1 ratio to 4:1, or even 3:1).
However I have been convinced that the 8ohm 2x10 is not for me... at least not to do what I wanna do with it. I'll look for an 8ohm 2x12. Perhaps the balance will be better and the tone wayyy fatter.

Thank you all for your help in choosing (and for not letting me blow a speaker, hehe)

 

[NKBassman]

Very heavy compression may decrease the perception of volume by removing some of the dynamic parts that we perceive as volume, especially if there is a lack of make-up gain after the compressor. Try backing off on the compression.

+1. Try backing off the compressor a bit. Might bring some punchiness back which should help you cut through better.

I also think it might be helpful if you’d share your EQ settings. There can sometimes be volume/power implications there too, especially if you’re running with a lot of low end.

 

[chaosMK]

I ran that same exact config for a while... the 2x10 will be punching harder than the 4x10. I later on used a PH 4x10/2x12 rig and liked it well enough.

In the end my favorite setup was a single PH410 with my Bass 400 (with KT88's) cranked on the edge of power tube breakup. It got the job done in 3-piece prog metal (loud double bass drummer, tube/4x12 guitarist) and the cab could take whatever I threw at it.

These days I use 2 PH112s (8-ohm) and am happy with that. I drive a Mini and couldnt transport my 4x10 anymore! I use the 4-ohm output on my head and connect the cabs with a 3' speakon cable between them like diagram below.

https://mesa-boogie.imgix.net/media/Amplitudes/2013/June/2x8ohm-1x4ohmFILLEDweb.png

 

[couzin2000]

+1. Try backing off the compressor a bit. Might bring some punchiness back which should help you cut through better.

I also think it might be helpful if you’d share your EQ settings. There can sometimes be volume/power implications there too, especially if you’re running with a lot of low end.

FYI:
My playing was always with my fingers, but I really hit the strings through the bass, so that the strings actually hit the 22nd fret, and you hear a lot of mechanical noise (my playing sounds a bit like Steve Harris's sound... very aggressive). So the compressor was to shave the transients out a bit, there was just too much dynamic between the noise and the tone. I'll back off a bit, but I have recently started playing more with a pick. I do have some readjustments to figure out in that area.
Also, My EQ setting are almost completely flat. I usually keep most of the mids in there for extra punchiness. I do play with a Boss 7-band bass EQ pedal, but I turn these on only sometimes - mostly used as an effect in some songs. My bass's active eq is always flat, though I tend to leave the tone knob halfway in... makes it sound like I have a wah pedal halfway on.

But I do realize that I need some bottom end and a "feeling" of loudness. Perhaps the 2x12 or even a 1x15 would work better to accomplish this.

 

[NKBassman]

FYI:
My playing was always with my fingers, but I really hit the strings through the bass, so that the strings actually hit the 22nd fret, and you hear a lot of mechanical noise (my playing sounds a bit like Steve Harris's sound... very aggressive). So the compressor was to shave the transients out a bit, there was just too much dynamic between the noise and the tone. I'll back off a bit, but I have recently started playing more with a pick. I do have some readjustments to figure out in that area.
Also, My EQ setting are almost completely flat. I usually keep most of the mids in there for extra punchiness. I do play with a Boss 7-band bass EQ pedal, but I turn these on only sometimes - mostly used as an effect in some songs. My bass's active eq is always flat, though I tend to leave the tone knob halfway in... makes it sound like I have a wah pedal halfway on.

But I do realize that I need some bottom end and a "feeling" of loudness. Perhaps the 2x12 or even a 1x15 would work better to accomplish this.

Cool. My concern was whether you were scooping out all your mids, and/or cranking the low end way up on the amp.

I assume no Ultra Lo, Ultra Hi, or Bright switches?

carry on.

 

[couzin2000]

Cool. My concern was whether you were scooping out all your kids, and/or cranking the low end way up on the amp.

carry on.

Scooping out WHAT??!??

Oh, and no ultras on nor brightness.

 

[NKBassman]

Scooping out WHAT??!??

lol fixed and edited

 

[NKBassman]

I always liked the Bright switch on that amp, but never the Ultras

 

[ihixulu]

I own one of those (SVT 3 NONPRO) and it simply isn't a very loud head at 8ohms (relatively speaking of course). I like the sound I get out of it but unless I run it into my Goliath Sr. or some other multi speaker 4 ohm configuration it's not going to peel paint.

I found the graphic eq on it to have a weird filtering effect on the tone, I leave it off unless I am using it for a specific effect.