Double Bass Considering an EUB -- low tension, low action possible for person with hand condition?

[VictorW126]

a human being cannot physically play a 41" scale instrument in guitar position.

I have to argue against this phrase: in my region, the normal string length of the horizontal acoustic bass (guitar position) is 46 ".

 

[bherman]

Thanks so much for the replies. I confess that I do not think I have achieved clarity yet.

It seems my point about pain has turned into a discussion of technique. I did have a good teacher when I was young and did learn proper DB technique and fingerings, though if I were to go back, I'd need lessons again I'm sure.

I get how pain and technique might be related in most DB players' cases, but my pain is different. It is not muscle or joint pain, it's iatrogenic from a drug I have to be on. The best way I can describe it is hypersensitivity to texture, so round wounds are like sandpaper, but flat wounds are smoother, and my cats are actually softer.

So lower tension flats like on my ukulele bass are ok to play without gloves. TI flats on an electric are often ok. Everything else I use gloves. The thing I can't get my head around with an EUB is whether the action/tension thing would be worse or the same in terms of pain.

Some of you said action affects tone and not just volume. Can someone please point me to some recordings of an EUB or DB player with low action?

If there were a way to rent an EUB in town, and to pay for a setup, that would probably make the most sense for me to find out.

I see that you are in Montreal; if you were closer (I'm in Colorado) I'd let you try mine for a few days. Perhaps you can find someone locally who will let you spend a few hours with an electric upright? Probably tough to find a rental.

 

[damonsmith]

There is no reason to use the thumb as a pincher on either instrument. I agree arm weighting/pulling from the core is more important on upright, but it's also beneficial on bass guitar. Just because you don't know how to do it, does not mean it's not done.

It is not possible to to do it with the right hand with the traditional alternating fingers. The left is not impossible, but it is not the same thing at all.

 

[BarfanyShart]

I have to argue against this phrase: in my region, the normal string length of the horizontal acoustic bass (guitar position) is 46 ".

I don't think a contra balalaika is held much like a guitar. The body part kind of sits on the floor, and the heel of the neck is positioned over the player's body - kind of like some guys will lean the upper bout of a DB over their knee and play it in a more guitar-like position. So, you know, it's not really like how you hold a guitar, even if it's also not upright.

 

[dylanjohnson]

Here is an example of a master bassist playing an EUB with low action.

Thanks so much for the replies. I confess that I do not think I have achieved clarity yet.

It seems my point about pain has turned into a discussion of technique. I did have a good teacher when I was young and did learn proper DB technique and fingerings, though if I were to go back, I'd need lessons again I'm sure.

I get how pain and technique might be related in most DB players' cases, but my pain is different. It is not muscle or joint pain, it's iatrogenic from a drug I have to be on. The best way I can describe it is hypersensitivity to texture, so round wounds are like sandpaper, but flat wounds are smoother, and my cats are actually softer.

So lower tension flats like on my ukulele bass are ok to play without gloves. TI flats on an electric are often ok. Everything else I use gloves. The thing I can't get my head around with an EUB is whether the action/tension thing would be worse or the same in terms of pain.

Some of you said action affects tone and not just volume. Can someone please point me to some recordings of an EUB or DB player with low action?

If there were a way to rent an EUB in town, and to pay for a setup, that would probably make the most sense for me to find out.

 

[Jon Moody]

So lower tension flats like on my ukulele bass are ok to play without gloves. TI flats on an electric are often ok. Everything else I use gloves. The thing I can't get my head around with an EUB is whether the action/tension thing would be worse or the same in terms of pain.

I wonder if tapewound strings would work for your specific needs. They are incredibly low tension (despite what their gauges may imply) and are incredibly smooth. I think they're slightly smoother than flatwounds.

Some of you said action affects tone and not just volume. Can someone please point me to some recordings of an EUB or DB player with low action?

Action does not have a noticeable effect on the sound/tone of an EUB itself; it's more how the player's technique adjusts to the action of the instrument. I've had my NS CR series with "traditional DB" action and (currently) very low. The only tonal differences come from how I attack those strings, and not the electric instrument.

 

[JES]

Interesting. The Weber solo sounds very "fretless bassy" to my ears. I'm curious about @Jon Moody 's claim that it's a matter of technique.

 

[Francois Blais]

Weber was using a mix of magnetic and piezo pickups, with a rack of electronics.
That big fretless sound is at the center of his EUB work.

 

[equill]

As an NS Design user, I'd honestly say they would be good for you, especially if played on a stand. The stand will help you control hand pressure, as you no longer need to support the instrument while playing. Flat strings you already know about. The NS Design bridges can go really low - like bass guitar low - and the adjustment is easily done by the user with a screwdriver. In my experience (so far), string height doesn't affect tone too much, if at all; what it does achieve is to make it possible to play with a more typical double bass right hand technique, if that's what you want. But yes in an ideal world you'd be able to try before you buy.

I was going to make a similar suggestion.

Between an NS WAV4 strung with GHS Crossovers, a Biarnel Stico with Spirocores, and an acoustic upright also with Spirocores, the WAV4 has by far the easiest action. Because of the piezo bridge, there's no reason you couldn't string it with tapewounds to make it even easier on your hands.

 

[Wasnex]

Interesting. The Weber solo sounds very "fretless bassy" to my ears. I'm curious about @Jon Moody 's claim that it's a matter of technique.

In my experience: Lower action increases sustain and reduces thump. It also limits how much energy we can put into the string without causing it to rattle against the fingerboard. These affects also occurs with bass guitar to some degree IMHO.

The NS Design I played had very long sustain with almost no thump or attack at a moderate/low string height. I would definitely describe the sound as more like a fretless than an upright bass. In my experience most EUBs sound more like fretless BG. But you can find instruments with more thump and less sustain than the NS Design basses. NS Design basses are designed to have their own unique voice and are not IMHO a good proxy for an upright.

Since there seems to be disagreement on pretty much everything, unfortunately you may have to just go for it and draw your own conclusions.

The strings I ordered on the NS Design were flats, but they had texture. It was also possible to string the instrument with upright bass strings.

 

[HateyMcAmp]

Sometimes I wonder about these posts, where people are getting their information.... for what its worth, I play all 3, DB with standard gauge Pirastro Perpetuals, an Eminence EUB with solo gauge Pirastro Perpetuals ( with lower action), and an electric bass (P bass) with pyramid flats. The DB with medium action is by far the most challenging physically, the EUB with solo strings and lower action is by far much easier to play. I would say that the EUB, with low action and solo gauge strings, is fairly similar to a P bass with flats, as far as physicality of the instrument to play.

I also have an Eminence with downtuned solo strings also (in my case superflexibles.) With low action (mine can get lower than any acoustic DB I've owned) it's just about as playable and physically easy as any string instrument I'm aware of bass or otherwise. For someone in the OPs position I think an Eminence might not be a bad choice. What I like about this bass is that it has a really decent approximation of the balance point and feel of an acoustic DB and the small acoustic cavity is really nice for practicing.

If money is tight I would recommend an NS design bass with downtuned solo strings. These basses are not my favorite sound or aesthetics (very modern) but it has a very high build quality and have the action set very low with no buzz. They play great out of the box and require no luthier trip to get the action low in my experience. I would avoid low-end instruments if extremely easy playability is your priority.

 

[DoubleMIDI]

Since the OP learned to play DB he might be more happy with an endpin and body support than a tripod stand. But that depends on his hypersensitivity.

A low string height is probably not the best solution. A stretchier string core like gut or synthetic makes it easier to press strings down from the same height than steel core strings. And a larger diameter (specially on the higher strings) distributes the pressure over a larger area of the finger which might help with hypersensibility too.

Depending on bow use or not I would recommend synthetic core flatwound metal solo strings (downtuned), like Evah Pirazzi Solo or maybe SuperSensitive Sensicore or Evah Slaps or (without bowing) Innovation Silver Slaps (flatwound synthetic wound synthetic core),at least for the G and D.

Personally I dislike the stick=fingerboard -type of EUBs. They almost always only work with a stand (or endpin and body support cost a lot extra), so if your body moves a bit the bass doesn't move with you. Without a fingerboard that stays with some distance over the body you cannot grab the strings below the fingerboard end with a low action, so you rather touch it in a BG manner. That changes the sound more to a fretless BG. The thump is easier to get when the finger can grab below the string, with a higher action or beyond the end of the fingerboard. Plucking down there sounds better with synthetic core strings than with steel core, another reason to use synthetic core strings. They are also often recommended for solid body EUBs.
And they are easier to play in thumb position too because of the higher stretch than steel core.

If you want lowest texture on the strings because of the hypersensitivity, plain monofiber nylon strings might be a solution, but only for G and D, the lower ones are typically metal wound to enlarge flexibility and reduce diameter.

You need a piezo pickup for all these string types, a magnetic won't work successfully or at all. But in general this is no problem.

 

[dylanjohnson]

Interesting. The Weber solo sounds very "fretless bassy" to my ears. I'm curious about @Jon Moody 's claim that it's a matter of technique.

It absolutely does. Low action, light touch, magnetic/piezo pickups will give you that recipe. What sound do you want?

 

[DoubleMIDI]

Eberhard Weber always played with effects like chorus, LFO frequency modulation and reverb and delay. Not always with all of them, but at least some. It is part of his sound concept to overcome a sterile EUB sound that misses the body resonance.

He also played a high C 5-string EUB.