Double Bass Considering an EUB -- low tension, low action possible for person with hand condition?

[JES]

I'm--perhaps foolishly--considering an EUB. I've played NS Designs basses and liked them as sort of extra long scale fretless basses. I love the sound of the Yamaha Silent Basses as well and I know those are two very different sounds.

My question is about string tension and action. Because of drugs I'm on (permanently) I have some hand pain and hypersensitivity. On electric, that means gloves or flat wounds. Or nylon cores, and a ukulele bass.

On EUBs, can you set the action lower, and are there lower tension strings? I am not interested in Arco, at least not right now, so it would all be pizzicato. Also, relatedly, could I play it with Eucerin on my hands or would what really mess up the strings? Obviously, on an electric with flats, it just makes them Jamerson-level dead.

Musically, it would mostly be for experimental and solo stuff to start, and maybe some rock band schenanigans, and eventually I might drag it to jazz jams but who knows.

Is this even worth pursuing? I've saved up some money from selling off a bunch of gear, and I know the double bass world is just expensive. I'm out of practice but in stores I can make a double bass make a good sound.

Why now? It's my wife's idea. 41 years ago I learned on upright, and then became an electric bassist. My wife (and drummer) and I watch jazz shows now and again and she always asks whether I could get an electric upright. It used to be an upright, and I said I wouldn't do it without taking lessons, but now neither of us wants to deal with hauling a full acoustic bass around and we live in a place with temperamental weather.

 

[damonsmith]

EUBs are great. A real upright is easier on the hands than a bass guitar when played correctly. It isn't a question of being interested in arco, if you want a fighting chance at playing in tune you will need to practice arco.
A lot of the greatest double bassists across come from colder climates, and basic precautions will keep your instrument safe. Especially a new hybrid.
So, to answer your question an EUB bought out of fears and misconceptions of the double bass is not a great idea. If an EUB is the instrument you want, it is a great idea.

 

[JES]

A real upright is easier on the hands than a bass guitar when played correctly.

Wow. I had no idea. Could you say more about this? Or send me somewhere to read up on this? I feel like playing upright always involved more force at the points where my hands contacted the strings, even though I was relying on more muscles outside my hands....

 

[Wasnex]

A real upright is easier on the hands than a bass guitar when played correctly.

I have not found this to be true, and I doubt many others have either. I am sort of a whimp and have generally put a significant priority into learning to play with minimal effort. I also prioritize playing ease when setting up an upright bass. I usually cut the nut slots a bit deeper than most orchestral players, and I also run the string height lower.

These changes limit and compromise my acoustic volume and tone to some degree, but my job involved playing through an amp >99% of the time, so it was not a huge deal. I still found playing the upright to be way more physically demanding than playing BG. For context: My #1 BG is 6-string with a huge neck that I play using one finger per fret--the point is it's more taxing to play than my old Ric 4001 for example, and still requires less effort than upright bass.

@JES , it is possible to setup an EUB or a traditional upright for really low action. However, it does have a noticeable impact on the way the instruments speaks and sustains. It also has an impact on how you play it and, in the case of an acoustic, how much volume you can produce. The way the fingerboard is dressed is a significant factor in how low you can go. Dressing the fingerboard should be handled by an experienced pro luthier, and it's not exactly cheap.

However, even if you choose low tension strings and have the bass setup specifically for low action...I am not 100% confident it will suit your needs. You might try something like an NS Design Omnibass which has the scale of a BG (34").

 

[Hummergeist]

It may or may not help the OP specifically, but one thing I've appreciated about EUB is the option to play it with an endpin, or fixed to a stand, which can take away the need to support the instrument with your hands while you play. Could be useful with your issues - my back is definitely enjoying the holiday from having a bass hanging off me. Now I hang off the bass

 

[BarfanyShart]

If you are talking about a 3/4 scale EUB that uses standard DB strings, then you have a lot of options for low tension setups. Your best bet, IMHO, would be "solo" strings, which are meant to be tuned up a whole step for solo repertoire, but end up being the equivalent of an "extra light" bass guitar string in standard tuning. The next step up in tension for DB strings is "weich" which is German for "soft", which is your light gauge for any specific brand of string. If you like low tension flatwound strings on bass guitar, like TI jazz flats, then you will probably dig TI Spirocore strings for upright - which are universally acclaimed for their versatility and playability, particularly for the serious student. I would suggest "solo" gauge for the G, D, and A strings, and a "weich" for the E - that is an old pro setup for EUB, you'll love it.

Don't be scared of the price of the strings, cheap out on the bass before you cheap out on strings. I feel like 90% of the sound you get out of an EUB is the strings you have on it. That said, the Yamaha does have some fancy digital modeling onboard that makes it sound real good, but I have found similar modeling available on the Fender Studio/Stage combo amps, and in plug-ins, and it is probably obtainable elsewhere.

Also, if this is a EUB with a bridge and tailpiece similar to DB, that bridge is usually adjustable, so you can lower the action. If the bridge doesn't go down as low as you need, then you can get the guy at the local violin shop to file it down for you- not a big deal. The NS and Ibanez EUBs have a different type of bridge, and I think use a different kind of strings, and I am not familiar as to how those work.

I also also partially agree that upright is more ergonomic than bass guitar, and that it can be less strenuous with proper technique. The enhanced ergonomics of upright position are apparent in that a human being cannot physically play a 41" scale instrument in guitar position. The caveats are that (1) obtaining proper technique on upright is a whole lot of work and study, and (2) it is a little bit of an apples-to-oranges comparison because there really isn't as much crossover as you might think between the DB and BG repertoire.

 

[Hummergeist]

If you are talking about a 3/4 scale EUB that uses standard DB strings, then you have a lot of options for low tension setups. Your best bet, IMHO, would be "solo" strings, which are meant to be tuned up a whole step for solo repertoire, but end up being the equivalent of an "extra light" bass guitar string in standard tuning. The next step up in tension for DB strings is "weich" which is German for "soft", which is your light gauge for any specific brand of string. If you like low tension flatwound strings on bass guitar, like TI jazz flats, then you will probably dig TI Spirocore strings for upright - which are universally acclaimed for their versatility and playability, particularly for the serious student. I would suggest "solo" gauge for the G, D, and A strings, and a "weich" for the E - that is an old pro setup for EUB, you'll love it.

Don't be scared of the price of the strings, cheap out on the bass before you cheap out on strings. I feel like 90% of the sound you get out of an EUB is the strings you have on it. That said, the Yamaha does have some fancy digital modeling onboard that makes it sound real good, but I have found similar modeling available on the Fender Studio/Stage combo amps, and in plug-ins, and it is probably obtainable elsewhere.

Also, if this is a EUB with a bridge and tailpiece similar to DB, that bridge is usually adjustable, so you can lower the action. If the bridge doesn't go down as low as you need, then you can get the guy at the local violin shop to file it down for you- not a big deal. The NS and Ibanez EUBs have a different type of bridge, and I think use a different kind of strings, and I am not familiar as to how those work.

I also also partially agree that upright is more ergonomic than bass guitar, and that it can be less strenuous with proper technique. The enhanced ergonomics of upright position are apparent in that a human being cannot physically play a 41" scale instrument in guitar position. The caveats are that (1) obtaining proper technique on upright is a whole lot of work and study, and (2) it is a little bit of an apples-to-oranges comparison because there really isn't as much crossover as you might think between the DB and BG repertoire.

I play two NS Designs, and you're right, the bridge is very easy to adjust, and a wide range of heights.

 

[Wasnex]

If you are talking about a 3/4 scale EUB that uses standard DB strings, then you have a lot of options for low tension setups.

Slappers use something called a "bumped" set of strings. AFAIK these can be similar if not identical to solo gauge (depends on the specific set).

Here is an interesting post (IMHO): "Bumped" String Sets ?

 

[Jeremy Jones]

I just got an NS Design Wav 4 and the action was supper low and very easy to play... I was doing hammer-ons that I could not do my my AUB.... With the added bonus of volume control I think you could make it very easy to play..... The only thing that might make it hard would be the left hand as it is Darn near AUB size as far as the neck if not a touch wider.

 

[damonsmith]

The tips of the fingers might take more force, but since you shouldn't really be using the hands for power, it is far easier on them. The power comes from you arms, shoulders and core.

 

[Wasnex]

The power comes from you arms, shoulders and core.

This is also done with bass guitar IMHO.

 

[jthisdell]

I use Obligatos on my NXT4 and TI Flats on my P, both low tension that are easy on the hands.

 

[damonsmith]

This is also done with bass guitar IMHO.

Not possible in the same way, and also not even included in the general pedagogy. The double bass needs to be played that way to get any sustainable results.

 

[Jon Moody]

Slappers use something called a "bumped" set of strings. AFAIK these can be similar if not identical to solo gauge (depends on the specific set).

Not quite. A “bumped set” would be a set of ADGC strings tuned down to EADG. Much looser feeling than a solo set in standard tuning.

 

[HateyMcAmp]

I find double bass MUCH easier on my body than BG. It’s easier to keep a straight wrist, it’s not a weight hanging on my shoulder, I can use larger muscle groups, and I find simandl-based technique very ergonomic. Finger-per-fret BG technique always felt weird for me.

To answer the OPs question - I think a well set-up EUB or DB with downtuned 4/4 sprio solos (or another downtuned solo string) at 4mm-7mm or 5mm-8mm G to E string height would be very comfortable to play. Combined with good technique it should meet your needs.

 

[dylanjohnson]

You should think about the type of sound you would like to produce on the instrument, then find the EUB that fits that description the best and is within your budget. Do you want to sound like Eberhard Weber or Paul Chambers, etc. For low tension strings that work well on electric upright, I highly suggest Spirocore Solos or Thomastik Superflexible Solos, which I'm enjoying immensely on my DB. You should be able to slam the action quite low if the the fingerboard is planed well, and although it will change the timbre of the attack and sound of the bass, you aren't dealing with acoustic volume issues, so it would work for you. I think the lowest action I've ever played on an EUB was an NS.

 

[bherman]

Sometimes I wonder about these posts, where people are getting their information.... for what its worth, I play all 3, DB with standard gauge Pirastro Perpetuals, an Eminence EUB with solo gauge Pirastro Perpetuals ( with lower action), and an electric bass (P bass) with pyramid flats. The DB with medium action is by far the most challenging physically, the EUB with solo strings and lower action is by far much easier to play. I would say that the EUB, with low action and solo gauge strings, is fairly similar to a P bass with flats, as far as physicality of the instrument to play.

 

[Wasnex]

Not possible in the same way, and also not even included in the general pedagogy. The double bass needs to be played that way to get any sustainable results.

There is no reason to use the thumb as a pincher on either instrument. I agree arm weighting/pulling from the core is more important on upright, but it's also beneficial on bass guitar. Just because you don't know how to do it, does not mean it's not done.

 

[JES]

Thanks so much for the replies. I confess that I do not think I have achieved clarity yet.

It seems my point about pain has turned into a discussion of technique. I did have a good teacher when I was young and did learn proper DB technique and fingerings, though if I were to go back, I'd need lessons again I'm sure.

I get how pain and technique might be related in most DB players' cases, but my pain is different. It is not muscle or joint pain, it's iatrogenic from a drug I have to be on. The best way I can describe it is hypersensitivity to texture, so round wounds are like sandpaper, but flat wounds are smoother, and my cats are actually softer.

So lower tension flats like on my ukulele bass are ok to play without gloves. TI flats on an electric are often ok. Everything else I use gloves. The thing I can't get my head around with an EUB is whether the action/tension thing would be worse or the same in terms of pain.

Some of you said action affects tone and not just volume. Can someone please point me to some recordings of an EUB or DB player with low action?

If there were a way to rent an EUB in town, and to pay for a setup, that would probably make the most sense for me to find out.

 

[Hummergeist]

Thanks so much for the replies. I confess that I do not think I have achieved clarity yet.

It seems my point about pain has turned into a discussion of technique. I did have a good teacher when I was young and did learn proper DB technique and fingerings, though if I were to go back, I'd need lessons again I'm sure.

I get how pain and technique might be related in most DB players' cases, but my pain is different. It is not muscle or joint pain, it's iatrogenic from a drug I have to be on. The best way I can describe it is hypersensitivity to texture, so round wounds are like sandpaper, but flat wounds are smoother, and my cats are actually softer.

So lower tension flats like on my ukulele bass are ok to play without gloves. TI flats on an electric are often ok. Everything else I use gloves. The thing I can't get my head around with an EUB is whether the action/tension thing would be worse or the same in terms of pain.

Some of you that action affects tone and not just volume. Can someone please point me to some recordings of an EUB or DB player with low action?

If there were a way to rent an EUB in town, and to pay for a setup, that would probably make the most sense for me to find out.

As an NS Design user, I'd honestly say they would be good for you, especially if played on a stand. The stand will help you control hand pressure, as you no longer need to support the instrument while playing. Flat strings you already know about. The NS Design bridges can go really low - like bass guitar low - and the adjustment is easily done by the user with a screwdriver. In my experience (so far), string height doesn't affect tone too much, if at all; what it does achieve is to make it possible to play with a more typical double bass right hand technique, if that's what you want. But yes in an ideal world you'd be able to try before you buy.