Joe .... I'm more puzzled why folks here always reply with "boost your mids" vs "what does your spectrum analyzer say?"
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Consistency. How come nobody here ever talks about it?
- Thread starter Joe Nerve
- Start date
Yes!!! I use a Fender Bassman 250 with the "Room Balance"
control. It's like magic. I have been meaning to post a
question asking what this is doing exactly. I'm not sure what
it is doing but the best way I can describe it is as a "boominess"
control. Instead of fiddling with equalizers and tone controls,
tweaking this one knob pulls it in.
I wish it were that easy. Standing waves are different at
every frequency. There is little you can do to fix one frequency
without breaking another.
Unless you are bringing your own sound-absorbing material
to cover the walls and ceilings (who does that?), the best you
can do is just try to dial in the best compromise that you can.
Because most don't have a spectrum analyzer. And the ones that do probably aren't asking EQ questions.
If someone understands standing waves, they'll know that certain frequencies can be tamed by moving/aiming the amp a bit. It may require changing positions with someone else and I know this can be a problem for some but it does work.
Your comment "That means, the worse sounding the room or the stage, the *quieter* I want my stage rig" needs to be read and learned by a lot more people. They need to learn that sound coming from multiple sources causes huge problems with positive/negative reinforcement, AKA "comb filtering".
Does your drummer have a huge kick drum? More drummers need to learn that a huge kick drum causes more problems than just about any other instrument. A small one can be made to sound large but a large one is hard to blend with the bass/keys when they're all fighting for bandwidth. If it's bassy when only you're playing, you could try using smaller speakers, especially if the room is small. Big speakers in a small room aren't the best match.
I played with one drummer that had the smallest kit I have every seen (outside of rockabilly). He used a tom for the kick drum and brought a small amplifier and mic to make it sound bigger. He got a great sound out of a small kit.
Did a gig last weekend - guitarist had a Vox AC30 on opposite side of stage that just filled the entire stage and masked my already loud bass sound. No matter where I stood all I could hear was guitar.
He rolled of bass EQ on his amp - little change.
Turned amp to 90 degrees off axis to me - it was worse.
He moved it back 3 foot - I almost couldn't hear it... I had to ask him to turn it up!
He rolled of bass EQ on his amp - little change.
Turned amp to 90 degrees off axis to me - it was worse.
He moved it back 3 foot - I almost couldn't hear it... I had to ask him to turn it up!
I guess I was right in my statement that nobody talks about this.Me and snarf. That's it. Nice talkin with ya snarf.
hey there, just came over to the Live Sound section looking for some other input and saw your post. FWIW, I posted a very similar thread in Amps last week.
I am also having issues with getting a consistent bass sound, or at least how to get close to it as often as possible given all the variables we have to deal with when gigs are all over the place in terms of bands, genres, rooms/venues etc.
it can kind of get on your nerves (no pun intended
)I loved your statement about how it sometimes feels as if you are a beginning player again. That feeling hits me as well - even after 40+ years of playing. The sound isn't right, and all of a sudden an old familiar bass can feel foreign in your hands, and it just seems like a struggle when it should not be.
psycho-acoustics ??
keep talking, and working on this issue.
great post
While you bring up a very interesting point, you may be looking at it backwards. Think of it this way. We may not be talking about consistency very much because we have FOUND it. What I mean is this. I am not going to join in a bunch of conversations about being drowned out in certain rooms or outdoor gigs because I play through equipment that generally doesn't suffer these atrocities. So why would I get into the conversation? As well, many of the players here at TB seem to have really nice gear. Or they only play smaller venues. So why would THEY get involved in such conversations? They don't deal with problems arising from inconsistency. As well, many of us have been around the block enough times to know how to deal with such problems in most cases.
I think, in short, it doesn't get brought up much because it's not a huge problem for many of us. Most shows I play involve PA support with good monitors. If I can't get my rig to cut enough I put a little bass in my wedge. That way I don't have to crank it to 11. If I'm outside, my rig seems to do just fine. If I am in a boomy room, I dial back the lows a bit and trust the sound guy to do the rest. No problem.
I'm not making light of your observation. I just think that many of us have figured out ways to deal with inconsistencies as the arise. And many of us have (over the years and after many bad purchases) finally acquired the gear to get us through most scenarios.
Also, you can do a search and find HUNDREDS of "I can't hear myself" threads. I think they are really dealing with the same things you mentioned. So it does get discussed, just under a different name.
Interesting topic though. But the variables are endless. What rooms? What gear? What kind of bands? What kind of stage volume? Etc....
I think, in short, it doesn't get brought up much because it's not a huge problem for many of us. Most shows I play involve PA support with good monitors. If I can't get my rig to cut enough I put a little bass in my wedge. That way I don't have to crank it to 11. If I'm outside, my rig seems to do just fine. If I am in a boomy room, I dial back the lows a bit and trust the sound guy to do the rest. No problem.
I'm not making light of your observation. I just think that many of us have figured out ways to deal with inconsistencies as the arise. And many of us have (over the years and after many bad purchases) finally acquired the gear to get us through most scenarios.
Also, you can do a search and find HUNDREDS of "I can't hear myself" threads. I think they are really dealing with the same things you mentioned. So it does get discussed, just under a different name.
Interesting topic though. But the variables are endless. What rooms? What gear? What kind of bands? What kind of stage volume? Etc....
I'm not sure it is about the gear as it is about understanding room dynamics and having an open mind as to the changes you need to make to work with particularly bad rooms.
I've played in rooms where the bass was so boomy it drowned out everything else. My solution was to turn the bass control on my amp all the way down. The little bass frequencies which did get reproduced by my amp got amplified by the room so that it sounded decent. I did not have the greatest sound on stage but I gave the sound guy a fighting chance on giving us a good mix.
You will need to keep an open mind and be willing to sacrifice tone amongst other things. If you want the band to sound good in bad rooms you will probably need to do at least one of the following:
a) turn your amp down so that you have just enough to be able to hear yourself. The cab flapping your pants is cool but if the room cannot take it you will have to keep your amp at the lowest volume you can to reduce spill from the stage. You can even place the cab in front of you and make it point at you, even at an angle close to you like a wedge so that spill from the stage is reduced and you will probably hear better.
b) reduce your monitor mix to a bare minimum. The less stuff you have coming out of your monitor the easier it will be for you to hear what you really need to hear to get through the gig and to make life easier for everyone on stage. Besides, monitor wedges spill off the stage also and can contribute to a muddy sound off the stage. Do you really need to hear the acoustic guitar loud in your monitor or the rhythm guitar player? Can you make do with what is coming out from their monitor or their amp? Even better yet, can you do without hearing them at all for this particular gig? It might not be the most fun gig ever but at least you'll have a chance of actually sounding
good.
c) turn your amp down
d) adjust your eq so that you are not threading on other band member's sonic toes. (the main culprits are guitarists ).
e) turn your amp down
f) play cleanly. This can mean a lot of things. Amongst them, if the room cannot take it, it is pretty pointless playing a bunch of licks and passing notes that are only going to add to the mess. Stick to playing what is fundamental for the song and to playing the notes that your band mates really need you to play. If that low B is shaking the doors of the hinges with reverbaration consider playing it an octave higher if you can at all help it. Every little bit helps. You can try playing closer to the bridge for less boomy tone which will cut through the mix at a lesser volume. If you are doubling the keyboard player on a particular part, ask yourself (yes, even mid gig) whether the performance wouldn't be better off letting him play it alone. *rant on* Keyboard players, quit hogging the bass frequencies *rant off*.
f) you could also try TURNING YOUR AMP DOWN.
I've played in rooms where the bass was so boomy it drowned out everything else. My solution was to turn the bass control on my amp all the way down. The little bass frequencies which did get reproduced by my amp got amplified by the room so that it sounded decent. I did not have the greatest sound on stage but I gave the sound guy a fighting chance on giving us a good mix.
You will need to keep an open mind and be willing to sacrifice tone amongst other things. If you want the band to sound good in bad rooms you will probably need to do at least one of the following:
a) turn your amp down so that you have just enough to be able to hear yourself. The cab flapping your pants is cool but if the room cannot take it you will have to keep your amp at the lowest volume you can to reduce spill from the stage. You can even place the cab in front of you and make it point at you, even at an angle close to you like a wedge so that spill from the stage is reduced and you will probably hear better.
b) reduce your monitor mix to a bare minimum. The less stuff you have coming out of your monitor the easier it will be for you to hear what you really need to hear to get through the gig and to make life easier for everyone on stage. Besides, monitor wedges spill off the stage also and can contribute to a muddy sound off the stage. Do you really need to hear the acoustic guitar loud in your monitor or the rhythm guitar player? Can you make do with what is coming out from their monitor or their amp? Even better yet, can you do without hearing them at all for this particular gig? It might not be the most fun gig ever but at least you'll have a chance of actually sounding
good.
c) turn your amp down
d) adjust your eq so that you are not threading on other band member's sonic toes. (the main culprits are guitarists ).
e) turn your amp down
f) play cleanly. This can mean a lot of things. Amongst them, if the room cannot take it, it is pretty pointless playing a bunch of licks and passing notes that are only going to add to the mess. Stick to playing what is fundamental for the song and to playing the notes that your band mates really need you to play. If that low B is shaking the doors of the hinges with reverbaration consider playing it an octave higher if you can at all help it. Every little bit helps. You can try playing closer to the bridge for less boomy tone which will cut through the mix at a lesser volume. If you are doubling the keyboard player on a particular part, ask yourself (yes, even mid gig) whether the performance wouldn't be better off letting him play it alone. *rant on* Keyboard players, quit hogging the bass frequencies *rant off*.
f) you could also try TURNING YOUR AMP DOWN.
okcrum
in your chest
Lots of times a boxy room calls for a bass cut, and even a mid boost to sound ok all over. New rooms, I'll bring my wireless and walk around to hear how my eq sounds. That helps get dialed in fast.
EDIT: This assumes no sound guy/PA reinforcement, of course.
EDIT: This assumes no sound guy/PA reinforcement, of course.
This is it in a nutshell. The problem most bassists have is that they deal with inconsistency when trying to get THEIR tone in different rooms. If they were more worried about sending the SOUND MAN what he needs, it wouldn't be so much of an issue. As a sound guy as well as a bass player let me tell you it can be a nightmare.
I disagree with you slightly about gear though. I find that I have less problems dialing in a room with better (more versatile) gear.
