Convert ME to Flatwounds! (Or Attempt To..)

[Dub56]

Don't listen to Harry.

Is this clip "great" sounding enough?


Incidentally, when you say you didn't leave them on long enough because you didn't like the tone... well, that's the whole point!! D'Addario Chromes take a few weeks to settle down (in my experience). I've had one set of them on a Jazz Bass for 5 years, and they sound and feel fantastic. I've got a Precision Bass with 16-year-old GHS Precision Flats, and they're awesome, too.

Use them in a band context. You'll instantly hear your bass muscle its way to an "authoritative" position.

That is a good sounding example, thanks! I like that tone.

I had the Chromes on for quite a while. They weren't bad, but weren't quite what I wanted. I'm sure they would get better with even more age, though.

And did you experience the same thing with your E string on the GHS flats? I'm curious if it's just a bad set or if its just the character of the string itself.

 

[dougjwray]

That is a good sounding example, thanks! I like that tone.

I had the Chromes on for quite a while. They weren't bad, but weren't quite what I wanted. I'm sure they would get better with even more age, though.

And did you experience the same thing with your E string on the GHS flats? I'm curious if it's just a bad set or if its just the character of the string itself.

Glad you liked the example. He's another: Carl Radle with Delaney and Bonnie, playing with a pick. Probably LaBella flatwounds.



Actually, in the Stevie Wonder clip, you're hearing LaBellas, too, played by James Jamerson. He used an extremely heavy, high tension gauge which is still around today, marketed as the "Jamerson set."
I know what you mean about the E string in the GHS set. I think I just stuck with it and got used to it. But you may have gotten a set with a REALLY dead E string.

 

[Dub56]

Glad you liked the example. He's another: Carl Radle with Delaney and Bonnie, playing with a pick. Probably LaBella flatwounds.



Actually, in the Stevie Wonder clip, you're hearing LaBellas, too, played by James Jamerson. He used an extremely heavy, high tension gauge which is still around today, marketed as the "Jamerson set."
I know what you mean about the E string in the GHS set. I think I just stuck with it and got used to it. But you may have gotten a set with a REALLY dead E string.

I'm also worried that I might be looking for a sound that I can't get using lighter gauge flats. I might like the sound of a heavier set more, but I just can't get past the tension.

And I'll eventually try the GHS flats on my P-bass and see if the E is still a problem..

 

[wshines1892]

You really won't be too impressed by flats until you use them in a band context. By themselves, you may just be unimpressed, and if you play more solo stuff then I wouldn't necessarily suggest them. But if you jam with a group, there's just nothing that sits in the mix like flats, for certain genres anyway.

 

[djaydjay]

I know what you mean about the E string in the GHS set. I think I just stuck with it and got used to it. But you may have gotten a set with a REALLY dead E string.

I have the same problem with the E string (but from Fender) and have something in common with OP: the low tension.
Could this strange sound actually come from a too low tension on the E string? It's my 1st flatwound set, so I'm not experienced enough to be sure of it.

 

[dougjwray]

I have the same problem with the E string (but from Fender) and have something in common with OP: the low tension.
Could this strange sound actually come from a too low tension on the E string? It's my 1st flatwound set, so I'm not experienced enough to be sure of it.

Sorry, I'm not sure I understand your question.
If the E string is tuned to E, the tension shouldn't vary from one set to another, WITHIN THE SAME BRAND. "Deadness" isn't related to degrees of tension, as far as I know.
My theory about the E string thing that we're discussing is that it takes more work to get it to "speak", compared to a roundwound E, so it takes some mental and physical adjustment.
Anyone else have any ideas about it?

 

[SanDiegoHarry]

That's pretty much the place I'm in right now. I see a HUGE number of people swearing by flats here but I guess so far, I'm just not convinced. I'm still trying to give it a chance before I totally move away from the idea.

While I see the use for flats under specific conditions, I think the whole enthusiasm for them just as yet another part of the "everything that is old and primitive is great" cult on TB. I started playing when flats were pretty much all you could get, and once I put a set of rounds on a bass I never went back.

Now, were I in a motown review act that was making good money, I'd go out and buy a sunburst P-bass and put flats on it, just to fit the gig... but otherwise? I'll just turn the tone down a bit and finger mute to get the thump... and STILL be ready to sound bigger/brighter when it's time to do so without swapping basses.

 

[FretlessMainly]

Of course it all comes down to personal choice regarding tone preference, but I'll reiterate two things Doug said above:

1. You generally won't like the initial tone you get from flats; you need to hang in there for a good month or so.

2. While it's true that you can't get that snappy, clanky, brighter rounds tone from flats, the biggest advantage to flats is, to my ears, less "tone" as it is "presence." To me, rounds work best with a contoured sound (i.e.scooped mids) and flats benefit more significantly from those growly mids that cut through a band really well.

Edited to add: To address Harry's point above, I generally use flats for three reasons:

1. I play mainly fretless and rounds can chew up the boards;
2. Rounds tend to sound very weak on the upper end of my basses and the lows seem to lack the focus of flats. Flats sound more even across the range of the bass. I had rounds on my CIJ Jazz FL for a while and just had to take them off because the high end was not working for me.
3. The presence I mentioned above.

Nothing to do with tradition or old-school or any of that.

 

[dougjwray]

While I see the use for flats under specific conditions, I think the whole enthusiasm for them just as yet another part of the "everything that is old and primitive is great" cult on TB. I started playing when flats were pretty much all you could get, and once I put a set of rounds on a bass I never went back.

Now, were I in a motown review act that was making good money, I'd go out and buy a sunburst P-bass and put flats on it, just to fit the gig... but otherwise? I'll just turn the tone down a bit and finger mute to get the thump... and STILL be ready to sound bigger/brighter when it's time to do so without swapping basses.

I do agree with you about that cult, and people's sheeplike tendencies.
My own experience was that I started with flatwounds in 1970 -- on a Gibson EBO, using a felt pick, no less -- and switched to roundwounds in 1976 after Jaco Pastorius personally told me that "you HAVE to have roundwounds for that funky sound!" Speaking of sheep, even though I missed a certain something with the roundwounds, I stuck with them all the way to 1996, when I tried a set of flats again on a '70s Univox P-Bass copy that I picked up.
Now, I always bring two basses to a gig, one with each kind of strings. I could try to simulate flats with roundwounds the way you do (tone down, palm muting), but when I want that sound for the majority of a night, I'd rather just use the genuine article.
Each to his own...

Edited to include an amusing (sort of) anecdote:
On Saturday night, I was playing a concert and switching between the two basses, really enjoying the two sounds. During an intermission, a fellow musician came up to ask me what the difference was between them-- obviously not hearing any difference. (There you go.)

 

[SanDiegoHarry]

Of course it all comes down to personal choice regarding tone preference, but I'll reiterate two things Doug said above:

1. You generally won't like the initial tone you get from flats; you need to hang in there for a good month or so.

2. While it's true that you can't get that snappy, clanky, brighter rounds tone from flats, the biggest advantage to flats is, to my ears, less "tone" as it is "presence." To me, rounds work best with a contoured sound (i.e.scooped mids) and flats benefit more significantly from those growly mids that cut through a band really well.

Edited to add: To address Harry's point above, I generally use flats for three reasons:

1. I play mainly fretless and rounds can chew up the boards;
2. Rounds tend to sound very weak on the upper end of my basses and the lows seem to lack the focus of flats. Flats sound more even across the range of the bass. I had rounds on my CIJ Jazz FL for a while and just had to take them off because the high end was not working for me.
3. The presence I mentioned above.

Nothing to do with tradition or old-school or any of that.

I agree 100% that it's a personal choice - if you like flats, then by all means use them. I've played both, and I've made my choice. It sounds like you've done the same.

As far as flats & fretless - I too play fretless, but I've never had a problem with rounds chewing into fretboards... It might be the material of my fretless basses I've owned, I don't know. I just like the feel and sound. I actually find the feel of flats really odd - - I sat in on a jazz gig a number of months ago playing a buddy's Rob Allen with flats and it just felt... ODD. I'm sure I'd get use to it, but I'm happy with what I have. I guess the main reason I've entered this conversation is that the OP wanted to know why folks were all "Converting" - and I stand by my theory: There is a "cult of the old" here on TB, and woe be to he who DARES to challenge the greatness of basses made in the '70s, stock Fender pickups and tubes! It's just so... Silly - at least to me. I wouldn't trade any piece of gear I own for ANYTHING made between 1968 and 1990.

 

[djaydjay]

Sorry, I'm not sure I understand your question.
If the E string is tuned to E, the tension shouldn't vary from one set to another, WITHIN THE SAME BRAND.

OP said that he used low tension set and I do too (actually, usual tension but low tuning).
Since we both have a too "thumpy" E string, I was wondering if it that could be related to the low tension.

"Deadness" isn't related to degrees of tension, as far as I know.

there you go
I don't know if you understood my question, but you for sure did answer it

I've been trying to make that E "speak" for 2 months... without any results.

 

[dougjwray]

OP said that he used low tension set and I do too (actually, usual tension but low tuning).
Since we both have a too "thumpy" E string, I was wondering if it that could be related to the low tension.


there you go
I don't know if you understood my question, but you for sure did answer it

I've been trying to make that E "speak" for 2 months... without any results.

Okay, glad I could help!
My suggestion would be to try another brand... perhaps D'Addario Chromes. Give them a few weeks of solid playing before you decide, because they are "twangier" than GHS Precision Flats, when brand new. I've had good luck with their E strings, though.

 

[FretlessMainly]

As far as flats & fretless - I too play fretless, but I've never had a problem with rounds chewing into fretboards... It might be the material of my fretless basses I've owned, I don't know.

Rounds came stock on my '08 Rick 4003FL and within a couple of weeks had made significant marks to the finished board. I did have LaBella DTB rounds on my CIJ Jazz FL for about a year with no problems (rosewood board) except for the weakness in the upper notes. My '76 P FL has a finished maple board, so I'm not willing to try rounds, and the nice thick Fender 9050Ms I have on there sound killer to me.

My Ken Smith 6 FL has a nice ebony board that could probably deal with rounds OK, but it sounds so good with DA Chromes (the photo I posted in the ERB forum today was from back when it had TI Jazz flats on it) that I doubt I'll be testing that theiry out anytime soon.

I will also say that I do have rounds on my Wishbass and I like them in that application. Oddly, it's because of the mid growl I get from that animal, which contradicts the point I made earlier about rounds and mids. I suppose there are exceptions to everything.

 

[FunkMetalBass]

Rounds go click click when you play dem hard and argressive.
Flats always go buuummmmmm

Rounds after a year sound like dull-thud
Flats always go buuummmmmm

Rounds chew up your fingers if yuo do lots of slides
Flats feel like baby bottoms

Rounds are like Juicy Fruit
Flats are like Stride

Not as many ppl use flats so flats are cooler for hipsters

 

[The Bass Clef]

I switched to flats about 10 years ago mainly because they are easier on the frets and I play a couple vintage basses. I sort of belong to the "cult" because they just don't make them like they used to. Well, they do, but IMO if you want something that compares to the workmanship and quality of 60s and 70s basses, you have to pay a lot for it. There are some really excellent quality modern basses out there like Foderas and Sadowkys, but when I had a few grand to spend, I fell in love with my Jazz the moment I 1st picked it up and had to have it. I would love to have a nice modern bass, but I haven't been able to justify spending thousands on a another bass... yet.

I have went through a lot of different brands of flats and I really feel the TIs are in a league of their own IMO. I've been playing them exclusively for about the last 9 years. I actually hate all other brands of flats now. I can't argue that most rounds have a brigher tone in general, but the TIs actually can get pretty bright. I would say they are even brighter than a lot of rounds out there - especially after a few weeks. I don't slap a lot, but the TIs are even decent for that, a lot better than La Bella or Roto flats. It's actually true what they say, that TIs get better with age. I've left a set on my Jazz for over a year playing on it everyday and they still sounded awesome. I like the feel of them over any other string I've tried too.

 

[Blah114]

i switched back to rounds not because of sound.. but because of playability.. you can decrease your treble for new rounds.. and you'll get a flat sound.. the people in crowds and bandmembers can hardly notice the difference... I say "play what is comfortable to your hands..." I found my hands "drug" from flats.. I would say "dragged" which is more what I mean.. but flats made it harder for me to play.. over a period of 5 months.. so I got rid of them (Chromes).

 

[prd004]

Of course it all comes down to personal choice regarding tone preference, but I'll reiterate two things Doug said above:

1. You generally won't like the initial tone you get from flats; you need to hang in there for a good month or so.

2. While it's true that you can't get that snappy, clanky, brighter rounds tone from flats, the biggest advantage to flats is, to my ears, less "tone" as it is "presence." To me, rounds work best with a contoured sound (i.e.scooped mids) and flats benefit more significantly from those growly mids that cut through a band really well.

Edited to add: To address Harry's point above, I generally use flats for three reasons:

1. I play mainly fretless and rounds can chew up the boards;
2. Rounds tend to sound very weak on the upper end of my basses and the lows seem to lack the focus of flats. Flats sound more even across the range of the bass. I had rounds on my CIJ Jazz FL for a while and just had to take them off because the high end was not working for me.
3. The presence I mentioned above.

Nothing to do with tradition or old-school or any of that.

I think this guy nailed the two things that sold me on flats but you never hear mentioned (or not much):

Balanced even volume from string to string and up and down the neck! If you like to climb the neck, flats do an amazing job at keeping all notes present and consistent, for that alone I love them! I could never get the same consistency string to string from rounds.

Rounds seem to accentuate the scooped sound but for me the mid defines the bass. When I play up on the neck with rounds, as I often do, these notes would lose the bottom end of the scooped sound leaving only the zing and leaving me underwhelmed! With flats, no matter where I play on the neck the notes have some stank!!!!!!!!!!!

Of course it's all a matter of opinion and if you polled a hundred bass players on here fifty would say I hate flats and only use rounds, the other fifty would say I love flats. There is no right answer, you have to find what inspires you.

 

[EpiRipper]

IMHO: Flatwounds = bleh.

I can make my bass sound just like it has flats by muting. You can NOT make a bass with flats sound like it has rounds - it just can not be done. So I see flats as nothing but limiting, and I'm not big on limits.

+1000
If you want to know what tapewounds sound like... try kicking the side of a large cardboard box. Thuddy, no definition. My first bass was strung with black nylon tapewounds when I bought it and, not knowing any better at the time, i kept buying tapewound strings ( I was young and there was no TB around to help out a poor, misguided newcomer to bass.)
My second bass was strung with roundwounds and what a difference! I could actually hear the notes being played. It's been rounds for me ever since.
Muting rounds with a bit of tone roll off will sound like flats, nothing you do will make flats sound like rounds.

 

[engedi1]

Here is my jazz trio covering footprints by Wayne Short. This was recorded on my Sadowsky m5-24, using the neck soapbar only, in passive mode, with year old TI flats, through an Avalon U5 direct to the board. Probably no eq, good studio compression. This cut highlights how much midrange, sustain, and growl you can get from TI flats. These are possibly my favorite string for fingerstyle.
I have put stainless rounds back on my Sad because my gig coming up in a couple week requires slap bass and TI's are lousy for slap IMHO.
I think that it is all about having the right string for the gig. Ideally, I would have another M5-24 that I could string with flats and one with stainless rounds. I am 100% sold on flats for the right situation, but not that flats are the answer to all your bass problems. some gigs require the round sound, some require the flat sound. I using a foam mute will get your round equipped bass pretty darn close and that may be a good compromise for many folks.

 

[king_biscuit]

I am currently playing in a group that is covering old standards, 60s pop and some 70s funk. I have tried basses with flats and rounds for this gig. My 62RI Jazz with GHS Precision Flats simply sounds best. It is super fat and defined in the mix, and the higher strings/notes don't thin out the way rounds do. Now if I were is a Rush or Level 42 tribute band, I'd probably want something active with new rounds. Horses for courses...