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Correct order?: Mixer>EQ>Crossover>PowerAmp(s)

#21
JustDavid said:
I read the manual quote as referring to any inserts, not just channel or main. Or subgroup or aux.
Click to expand...


I don't understand how you could come to that conclusion, after all, what does THIS mean to you???


"Insert points are very useful to process channel signals with dynamic processors or equalizers."


To me, "to process CHANNEL signals" means just that...



- georgestrings
 
#23
Zooberwerx said:
Could be but tech support said I could also place the aforementioned processor and EQ betweenst the mixer and power amp(s) as an alternative. Given this info, I assumed they were referring to main inserts as first choice. We only have one parametric EQ so we have to make the most of it. Each channel does have its own single-band para EQ (located on the channel EQ strips). Its nothing to yell about but it does an OK job.

Riis
Click to expand...



I'm sure you *could*, but it's pretty uncommon to use a parametric EQ on a mixer main out signal - in fact, I'd *guess* that it could get you in trouble right quick with a little operator error...

Sure, any decent mixer is going to have channel EQs, but as I said before - it's not uncommon for pro sound people to use a para EQ inserted into an individual channel to tailor vocals exactly how they want them...

Lastly, no offense intended - but I wouldn't consider Behringer's tech support to be a definitive source... I'm certainly no expert, but I know a few - people who work on a national level - and any info I forward, I've verified with them...



- georgestrings
 
#25
georgestrings said:
I don't understand how you could come to that conclusion, after all, what does THIS mean to you???


"Insert points are very useful to process channel signals with dynamic processors or equalizers."


To me, "to process CHANNEL signals" means just that...



- georgestrings
Click to expand...

Point taken! Here's another excerpt which precedes the original "inserts" reference. Should have included it with my earlier post but the manual kinda bounces you back and forth...

"MAIN INS(ERTS) (UB2442FX-PRO only)

These are the insert points for the main mix. In the signal path, they are post-main mix amp, but pre-main fader(s). Use them to insert, for example, a dynamics processor or graphic equalizer. Please also not the information on insert points in chapter 5.3."

Here's a link to the manual:

Invalid Link Removed

I'm sure a lot of the info is brand / model specific but I also assume the application concepts within are fairly universal.

Riis
 
#26
Zooberwerx said:
Point taken! Here's another excerpt which precedes the original "inserts" reference. Should have included it with my earlier post but the manual kinda bounces you back and forth...

"MAIN INS(ERTS) (UB2442FX-PRO only)

These are the insert points for the main mix. In the signal path, they are post-main mix amp, but pre-main fader(s). Use them to insert, for example, a dynamics processor or graphic equalizer. Please also not the information on insert points in chapter 5.3."

Here's a link to the manual:

Invalid Link Removed

I'm sure a lot of the info is brand / model specific but I also assume the application concepts within are fairly universal.

Riis
Click to expand...


Yeah, and you'll note that they specify a graphic EQ when talking about a mains insert, right???

It's only a guess, but I *think* the reasoning behind not using a parametric EQ in a mains insert is because the wide EQ swings they afford *could* get one in trouble right quick regarding a main mix...



- georgestrings
 
#27
georgestrings said:
in fact, I'd *guess* that it could get you in trouble right quick with a little operator error...

Lastly, no offense intended - but I wouldn't consider Behringer's tech support to be a definitive source... I'm certainly no expert, but I know a few - people who work on a national level - and any info I forward, I've verified with them...



- georgestrings
Click to expand...

Trouble?!? That's an understatement!

I've done okay with tech support and manual guidance but I'm willing to weigh any and all resources on the matter. Keep in mind that I have to do the most with the least gear-wise....that is, until I'm rich and famous.

Riis
 
#28
Zooberwerx said:
Trouble?!? That's an understatement!

I've done okay with tech support and manual guidance but I'm willing to weigh any and all resources on the matter. Keep in mind that I have to do the most with the least gear-wise....that is, until I'm rich and famous.

Riis
Click to expand...


Yeah, I'm thinking that's why I've never seen it done, despite having several hundred soundman gigs under my belt, and being support involved in twice as many as that...

I know what you mean regarding gear - I've probably got about $15k into my PA, and it's fairly small scale when compared to many... I've pieced mine together over several years, and am a real bargain hunter - but I always buy quality used over new stuff of lesser quality...



- georgestrings
 
#30
georgestrings said:
Yeah, and you'll note that they specify a graphic EQ when talking about a mains insert, right???

It's only a guess, but I *think* the reasoning behind not using a parametric EQ in a mains insert is because the wide EQ swings they afford *could* get one in trouble right quick regarding a main mix...



- georgestrings
Click to expand...

Just found this in the Rane PE 15 manual:

"The most common location to insert a parametric equalizer is immediately preceding the active crossover or power amplifier. This provides the means to correct loudspeaker deficiencies and other acoustic corrections required in any system for a high quality reproduction. Many systems employ both a graphic and parametric equalizer connected in series. The graphic being used to correct for acoustic anomalies, while the parametric helps source correction, loudspeaker compensation and feedback control."

[Invalid or Expired Link Removed]

Well, I don't have the graphic EQ (*sob*). Guess I'd better go shake the ol' piggy bank!


Riis
 
#32
Zooberwerx said:
Just found this in the Rane PE 15 manual:

"The most common location to insert a parametric equalizer is immediately preceding the active crossover or power amplifier. This provides the means to correct loudspeaker deficiencies and other acoustic corrections required in any system for a high quality reproduction. Many systems employ both a graphic and parametric equalizer connected in series. The graphic being used to correct for acoustic anomalies, while the parametric helps source correction, loudspeaker compensation and feedback control."

[Invalid or Expired Link Removed]

Well, I don't have the graphic EQ (*sob*). Guess I'd better go shake the ol' piggy bank!


Riis
Click to expand...


Well, on the bright side - decent quality graphic EQs aren't all that expensive - I'm currently using a dbx231 for my mains, and a pair of dbx215s for my 4 monitor mixes, and they're working quite well... I've found DBX stuff to be extremely reliable, good sounding(quiet), while not being all that high priced...

BTW, before I got the 231 I'm using for mains, I used to use a 215 for that, and it worked OK - they can be had used for well under $100...


- georgestrings
 
#33
georgestrings said:
Yeah, I'm thinking that's why I've never seen it done, despite having several hundred soundman gigs under my belt, and being support involved in twice as many as that...

I know what you mean regarding gear - I've probably got about $15k into my PA, and it's fairly small scale when compared to many... I've pieced mine together over several years, and am a real bargain hunter - but I always buy quality used over new stuff of lesser quality...



- georgestrings
Click to expand...

15K?? Your system is worth more than my three vehicles combined. The big question is "how do we optimize what we have on hand?" and that includes (try not to laugh):

Behringer UB 2442 mixer
BBE Sonic Maximizer (1)
Digitech Studio Twin (1)...it was free
Rane PE 15 Para EQ (1)
dbx 166 XL Compressor (1)
dbx 223 Crossover (1)
QSC RMX 1450 Amps (2)
Carvin 3-way Mains (2)
Yorkville 18" Subs 300 w (2)
Electrical Tape (one roll)

Total value: about a buck two-eighty.

Not quite a "McGyver" challenge but its close.

Riis
 
#34
modulusman said:
Here is a link to a thread I started over at harmony-central a while back about insert vs inline. Link Removed
Click to expand...

Excellent! Thanks for the link, mm! A little over my head but I found this to be the best representative response:

"Inserted before main faders. Not only for metering reasons, but reduces clipping and S/N ratio remains constant."

YMMV.

Riis
 
#35
One of the only real benefits to inserting eq units on output busses, are that you can listen to the effect the unit has (such as on a q wedge for monitors) on the mix via headphones. Typically FOH main buss outs, L-R Mono/center are all inline. There should be no real issue with inserting eq's, or dominators, or the like, on a FOH L-R mix. Most DO prefer to have them inline, and it is recognized as an industry standard. Also, having both a 1/3 octave graphic eq unit, AND a parametric unit inline on FOH main buss outs is not all that unusal. Most don't but some do. Meyer, and Appogee both make FOH parametric units that were designed for that purpose.
 
#36
georgestrings said:
To me, "to process CHANNEL signals" means just that...
Click to expand...

To me as well. Including the Left and Right channels.

Versus quibbling over terming, I think it best to discuss the major differences between channel/aux/subgroub/main insert points. As well as the functional and stylistic differences between using a (series) mains insert & placing processing between mixer & amp. As you've a lot more hands-on than I; go for it.
 
#37
I prefer to use the main inserts. If for some reason your graphic EQ cuts out you can un plug your inserted cable from the board and you are back up and running within seconds. If you are inline you need to get into back of your rack and repatch which will take more time.
 
#38
modulusman said:
I prefer to use the main inserts. If for some reason your graphic EQ cuts out you can un plug your inserted cable from the board and you are back up and running within seconds. If you are inline you need to get into back of your rack and repatch which will take more time.
Click to expand...


Certainly a valid point, although good EQ units are generally pretty reliable - and in my situation, it *might* take another 30 seconds to take the EQ out of the signal chain... I would only have to unplug both main EQ out cables, and plug them into the mixer outs - and be back up and running...


As I said before, I don't think either method is "wrong" in any way...


- georgestrings
 
#39
JustDavid said:
To me as well. Including the Left and Right channels.

Versus quibbling over terming, I think it best to discuss the major differences between channel/aux/subgroub/main insert points. As well as the functional and stylistic differences between using a (series) mains insert & placing processing between mixer & amp. As you've a lot more hands-on than I; go for it.
Click to expand...


You don't really think they were including mains when they were discussing "channels", do you???

It's one think to avoid "quibbling", but yet another to avoid admitting you were wrong when you tried to correct someone else - I'm just sayin'...


- georgestrings
 
#40
Okay, I can't find a reference to this in the manual but...

If I'm using a single channel para EQ (e.g. Rane PE 15) and I have L + R main inserts available, which insert should I use? Or doesn't it matter? Please explain the proper config. as I'm sure I'm missing something.

Riis
 

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