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Counting off in polyrhythm
- Thread starter Peter McFerrin
- Start date
Originally posted by Howard K
I understand it, and I accept it, but you have to agree it's not logical... captain
Yup! But it's slightly illogical, to me, how in chord symbols, 7 is assumed to mean minor 7th (in a major chord), whereas all other degrees of the scale are assumed to be major/perfect. Like it's assumed that we're always gonna be in the mixolydian mode.
Yeah, the triangle means maj7. If you were to have C triangle 7... hmm... if I saw that written, I would assume they just meant maj7 still. If you really wanted major 7th & minor 7th, I'd notate it as C7/maj7 or something I suppose.
- Apr 1, 2000
- 17,409
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- Endorsing Artist: Roscoe Guitars, DR Strings, Aguilar Amplification
There's where your problem is. A whole note is not, by definition, a whole bar regardless of time signature.
Of course that's right, but I can see what Howard means - that is, when you say "seven quarters" to yourself - it sounds strange! Whereas if you say "seven crotchets" it doesn't!
Originally posted by Howard K
Is it not? Aah, explain, please, if you have time!
So how do you define a whole note, then in-turn quarters, eigths etc?.. and how does the time signeture effect the whole note?
Hmmm... the table didnt help me all that much, but this did... [from Dictionary.com]
Semibreve: A note of half the time or duration of the breve; -- now usually called a whole note. It is the longest note in general use.
Breve: A note or character of time, equivalent to two semibreves or four minims. When dotted, it is equal to three semibreves.
So a breve [double whole note] is a given length...
a minim is half as long
a crochet is quarter as long
a quaver is an eigth as long
etc, etc...
...but when note is dotted it becomes half as long again, making the breve longer, but not the bar which, for example, consists of four crochets
Hence, it is possible to have 7 quavers in a bar.
Am I on the right track here? - I cant articulate it very well cause I'm struggling to get my head round it...?!
Semibreve: A note of half the time or duration of the breve; -- now usually called a whole note. It is the longest note in general use.
Breve: A note or character of time, equivalent to two semibreves or four minims. When dotted, it is equal to three semibreves.
So a breve [double whole note] is a given length...
a minim is half as long
a crochet is quarter as long
a quaver is an eigth as long
etc, etc...
...but when note is dotted it becomes half as long again, making the breve longer, but not the bar which, for example, consists of four crochets
Hence, it is possible to have 7 quavers in a bar.
Am I on the right track here? - I cant articulate it very well cause I'm struggling to get my head round it...?!
No, you mean semibreve, not breve. A minim is half as long as a semibreve - it's a quarter as long as a breve.
Yes - you could have a time signature of 4/4 where there is a rest and then a whole note goes across the bar starting on beat 3, for example.
No, no - I didnt mean that 4/4 was a fraction.
I meant that a quarter note is a fraction of the whole note... that is it's quarter of it.
I think this is what Bruce meant too?
So taking in your example of 15/1... the 1 is the fraction of the whole note, in this case a whole note! ...and there are 15 whole notes to each bar.
So: 7/8 has seven beats in a measure, with each beat being equal to an 8th of a whole note.
Does that then mean that a whole note played in 7/8 would carry onto the 1 of the next bar? ...or that a whole note cannot be played in a 7/8 time signeture?
So taking meters with a denominator of 4:
If you had a whole note and a quarter rest it would be 5/4.
A whole note and a half rest would be 6/4, right?
A whole note and a dotted half rest would be 7/4?
Is that right?!
Originally posted by Howard K
So taking in your example of 15/1... the 1 is the fraction of the whole note, in this case a whole note! ...and there are 15 whole notes to each bar.
That's a long bar!
So: 7/8 has seven beats in a measure, with each beat being equal to an 8th of a whole note.
Does that then mean that a whole note played in 7/8 would carry onto the 1 of the next bar? ...or that a whole note cannot be played in a 7/8 time signeture?
The latter, you can't have a whole note (semibreve) in a bar of 7/8. Just like you can't have a dotted minim in a bar of 2/4.
So taking meters with a denominator of 4:
If you had a whole note and a quarter rest it would be 5/4.
A whole note and a half rest would be 6/4, right?
A whole note and a dotted half rest would be 7/4?
Is that right?!
Well, yeah.
Don't get too hung up on it. Anything in 7/8 (theoretically) could be in 7/4, with all the note values doubled (and the tempo doubled). Then you could have a whole note in the bar! But it would be the equivalent of a half-note (minim) in 7/8. It doesn't really matter whether a whole note could fit in the bar or not. They're just names, a whole note is equal to 2 half notes, which is equal to 4 quarter notes. The 'wholeness' of the note doesn't really relate to the bar length. Some time signatures can fit a whole note in the bar, some can't. If you can't, and you want to write a note that long, you put the longest note you can fit in the bar, and tie it to a note in the next bar - etc.
In that case, in I'll stick loadsa silly time sigs into those transcriptions. Sure, the Sly & The Family Stone song is in 4/4, but I think I'll write it out in alternating bars of 7/8 and 1/8
Or maybe alternating bars of 13/16 and 3/16 
