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Counting off in polyrhythm
- Thread starter Peter McFerrin
- Start date
Howard,
I think you're right with your thinking. To fill a whole bar in 7/8 time, you could use a double dotted minim (half note). The value of a dotted minim is 3 beats (half again), and the second dot stretches it to 3.5 beats (an additional quarter).
I guess you could keep adding dots (although I've never seen more than two) but you'd never get into the following bar - each time you half the distance between yourself and double the original value (isn't that similar a famous classical greek paradox, whose name temporarily escapes me?)
Wulf
I think you're right with your thinking. To fill a whole bar in 7/8 time, you could use a double dotted minim (half note). The value of a dotted minim is 3 beats (half again), and the second dot stretches it to 3.5 beats (an additional quarter).
I guess you could keep adding dots (although I've never seen more than two) but you'd never get into the following bar - each time you half the distance between yourself and double the original value (isn't that similar a famous classical greek paradox, whose name temporarily escapes me?)
Wulf
Radioactive half life is exactly the pattern - I hadn't thought of it that way before, but from what I recall, that's just the way it works.
A dotted note is equivalent to tying the note to one of the same pitch but half the value. Which one to use is normally a matter of choice, within the bar, although there are arguments over which is clearer.
However, if you're passing the barline, you would tie across the barline rather than letting the dotted note carry across.
Wulf
A dotted note is equivalent to tying the note to one of the same pitch but half the value. Which one to use is normally a matter of choice, within the bar, although there are arguments over which is clearer.
However, if you're passing the barline, you would tie across the barline rather than letting the dotted note carry across.
Wulf
guys....a "whole note" is defined by the meter in which it occurs. So, a whole note in a bar of 4/4 equals 4 beats, a whole note in a bar of 7/8 equals 7 beats.
The "whole note" as it exists in notation is only that; notation. It must be put into meaningful context
(assigning a meter) for it to describe anything.
The "whole note" as it exists in notation is only that; notation. It must be put into meaningful context
(assigning a meter) for it to describe anything.
Is that the case? I'd like to see some references to that - I've got a couple of theory books but I won't see them until I get home (soon... but things like dinner will take priority 
)
It seems counter-intuitive - although it initially sounds like it makes sense to call the note that fills the whole bar a whole note, that doesn't make a 'quarter note' one quarter of the length of the bar, otherwise you'd only be able to play in 4/4!
That's probably why English usage is semibreve, minim, crotchet, quaver, etc rather than whole, half, quarter, eighth. If Godoze's rule is right, at least it doesn't violate our understanding of fractions, but simply requires a changed definition for semibreve (and breve?).
I did have a look for some online reference but couldn't find any.
Anyway, dinner calls
Wulf
)It seems counter-intuitive - although it initially sounds like it makes sense to call the note that fills the whole bar a whole note, that doesn't make a 'quarter note' one quarter of the length of the bar, otherwise you'd only be able to play in 4/4!
That's probably why English usage is semibreve, minim, crotchet, quaver, etc rather than whole, half, quarter, eighth. If Godoze's rule is right, at least it doesn't violate our understanding of fractions, but simply requires a changed definition for semibreve (and breve?).
I did have a look for some online reference but couldn't find any.
Anyway, dinner calls
Wulf
I got the table I posted earlier, in the thread from "Music Theory Online :
Invalid Link Removed
Everything there would fall out of place if 1 semibreve = 1 whole bar regardless of time signature (unless I'm missing something). Has been known....
Wulf
Wulf
- Apr 1, 2000
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Okay - dinner over, and I've got out my 'Rudiments and Theory of Music' published by the Associated Board of the Royal Schools of Music (London, 1958). Grade III, section 25, covers rests.
Therefore, the whole picture is more confusing than Ed makes out, but not when it comes to the value of notes as opposed to rests.
Wulf
I think this is where the confusion has crept in. A whole note is always four beats long - a whole note rest may be used to fill a complete empty bar.
Therefore, the whole picture is more confusing than Ed makes out, but not when it comes to the value of notes as opposed to rests.
Wulf
Ed,
That was my point. 7/8 was the wrong illustration.
obviously in 7/8 you do not have single note that can sustain the length of the bar.
But if someone tells me to play a whole note in 7/8 i make the assumption that i play one note thru that bar regardless of how it would be notated.
That was my point. 7/8 was the wrong illustration.
obviously in 7/8 you do not have single note that can sustain the length of the bar.
But if someone tells me to play a whole note in 7/8 i make the assumption that i play one note thru that bar regardless of how it would be notated.
i should have read the whole thread...
yes a whole note is 4 beats as notated.
I thought the poster was asking about whole note in the context of different meters; not how to actually notate a rhythm that extended the length of a bar in various meters...
i'm done here...
yes a whole note is 4 beats as notated.
I thought the poster was asking about whole note in the context of different meters; not how to actually notate a rhythm that extended the length of a bar in various meters...
i'm done here...
Counting off in polyrhythm
I'm writing a tune for my jazz-rock band whose head features an 11/4 melody line atop a 7/4 + 7/4 + 8/4 rhythm section pattern. (The bars of 7 are in a 4+3 feel, FWIW, while the melody line is in a 4+3+4.)
Anyhow, how would I count this off? Would I count 7, or 11, or what? I was thinking of just counting off 3 or 4, but since the feels don't line up that probably won't work. Anybody have any experience with this stuff?
Peter, unless the members of your band (preferably the drummer) can impose a 11 feel over 7 and 11 over 8 you're writing something that's unplayable.
Are you using software for that? I mean... you must be.
It's one thing to tap out a bar of 11 and play the melody but if the rest of the band is playing in 7 then to truly nail that to the ground, you should be tapping 7 w/ your foot. Or the rest of the band sould be tapping 11 while playing seven.
At the end of the day, polyrythms have to be internalized.
For example: If you play a triplet after playing 3 straight eighth notes it feels a little weird but it will come out because you know what a triplet sounds like. You've internalized it. W/ some practice you could even tap your foot to either pulse while playing.
Unless you and your band have internalized the sounds of 7 against 11 (and 8 against 11.) You're wasting your time...no pun intended.
I'm writing a tune for my jazz-rock band whose head features an 11/4 melody line atop a 7/4 + 7/4 + 8/4 rhythm section pattern. (The bars of 7 are in a 4+3 feel, FWIW, while the melody line is in a 4+3+4.)
Anyhow, how would I count this off? Would I count 7, or 11, or what? I was thinking of just counting off 3 or 4, but since the feels don't line up that probably won't work. Anybody have any experience with this stuff?
Peter, unless the members of your band (preferably the drummer) can impose a 11 feel over 7 and 11 over 8 you're writing something that's unplayable.
Are you using software for that? I mean... you must be.
It's one thing to tap out a bar of 11 and play the melody but if the rest of the band is playing in 7 then to truly nail that to the ground, you should be tapping 7 w/ your foot. Or the rest of the band sould be tapping 11 while playing seven.
At the end of the day, polyrythms have to be internalized.
For example: If you play a triplet after playing 3 straight eighth notes it feels a little weird but it will come out because you know what a triplet sounds like. You've internalized it. W/ some practice you could even tap your foot to either pulse while playing.
Unless you and your band have internalized the sounds of 7 against 11 (and 8 against 11.) You're wasting your time...no pun intended.
Oh... Sorry Ed, I misunderstoond.
If that's the case...
Then everyone's using the same 1/4 note pulse. ...any count will do.... just give a heads up to how many you're counting before the progression actually starts. Like, "I'm going to count three to give you the pulse and then start the piece on the one."
If that's the case...
Then everyone's using the same 1/4 note pulse. ...any count will do.... just give a heads up to how many you're counting before the progression actually starts. Like, "I'm going to count three to give you the pulse and then start the piece on the one."
You pretty much nailed it, Ed. And only the head has this going on--the blowing section goes between 4/4, 7, and 7+7+8 at my cue, and is harmonically static.
FWIW, Marc, guys like Robert Fripp and Dave Holland write stuff like this all the time. Granted, they and the musicians they have working for them are much better players than I could ever hope to be, but the odd meters present in northeast Brazilian music seems to indicate that even non-professionals (after all, you can't very well practice eight hours a day when you're a slave chopping sugar cane) can master this stuff.
I misunderstood your initial post, I thought you had a composition like this - where the brackets represent bars:
[11 over 7 ] [11 over 7][11 over 8]
I totally agree that any polyrhythm (within reason)can be grasped. The reason that natives of other cultures feel comfortable w/ some is because those poly's are part of that culture. It's like our 4/4. Breaking beyond indigenous rhythms is a matter of study and practice. I just misunderstood the original post and doubted your facility with 11 against 7 etc...
I'm a fan of Holland, I've seen him a couple of times.
If you're interested in something in the same vein, check out Brook Sofferman's - Modesty's Odyssey
He's a New England Conservatory percussion grad. Bergonzi's on it as well as other NEC staff. The liner notes are by John Abercrombie and explain the different polyrhythms in each tune - Slammin' stuff. There's a few vocal tracks (guest female vocalist) that might not float your boat (they don't, mine) but it's definitely worth the $$. This guy's really pushing jazz forward.
[11 over 7 ] [11 over 7][11 over 8]
I totally agree that any polyrhythm (within reason)can be grasped. The reason that natives of other cultures feel comfortable w/ some is because those poly's are part of that culture. It's like our 4/4. Breaking beyond indigenous rhythms is a matter of study and practice. I just misunderstood the original post and doubted your facility with 11 against 7 etc...
I'm a fan of Holland, I've seen him a couple of times.
If you're interested in something in the same vein, check out Brook Sofferman's - Modesty's Odyssey
He's a New England Conservatory percussion grad. Bergonzi's on it as well as other NEC staff. The liner notes are by John Abercrombie and explain the different polyrhythms in each tune - Slammin' stuff. There's a few vocal tracks (guest female vocalist) that might not float your boat (they don't, mine) but it's definitely worth the $$. This guy's really pushing jazz forward.
Indeed. These South-American rythms are interesting for Joe-average musicians, because they are complex enough to be challenging yet manageable (i.e. it's not one of those African, Indian or Javanese gamelan rythmical insanities - those are proof though that non-professionals can pull out some wicked stuff
). I didn't practice Brazilian Nordeste music, but in Venezula the traditionnal folk music has some interesting stuff, lots of 5/4 and rolling waltzes that mix 3/4, 6/8 and 9/8 ; and as I said, it's manageable, a very average musician as myself got a grasp of it with moderate ease. So I'd say, you can be confident with your tune, it will probably feel like everyone's counting in his or her head at first, but hey, who didn't butchered Take Five ?Just to give Howard K. a little more info, the meter implies a certain beat (of course) but there are also some leeway and tradition about how you group the notes and place the accents : e.g. a 7/4 as 4+3, 3+4, 2+3+2, 2+2+3 (Dave Brubeck's Unsquare dance) etc...
One of the most common tradition is about the 3*N/8 meters : 3/8, 6/8, 9/8, 12/8... While technicaly one could evenly accentuate each eight-note in the bar, these meters usualy imply triolets, i.e. one, two, three or four triolets in a bar. So people won't play a 6/8 just like a 3/4 : the 6/8 will rather feel like a 3/8+3/8, i.e. a doubled-up 3/4 (hence the fun in Venezulian music of superposing 3/4 and 6/8, a simple yet very effective polyrythmic effect.) Things could get tricky with the 9/8, while you may think that once written down, say, a 9/8 bar is equivalent to a 3/4 bar with three triolets, this would cause problems with tempo : a eight-note in a 9/8 at a pulsation of say, 120 BPM (= 240 eight-notes per minute) is not equivalent to the third of a quarter-note in a 3/4 at 120 BPM (=120*3=360 third-of-a-quarter per minute) - it is equivalent to the third of a quarter-note in a 3/4 at 80 BPM (=80*3=240 third-of-a-quarter per minute). Lots of composers use the 3*N/8 meters though, because it saves a lot of writing and if is just plain more natural if the piece asks for it. (Good examples of mixings between 3*N/8 and N/4+triolets meters can be found in Heitor Villa-Lobos' 12th study for guitar.)
P.S.: the Greek (false) paradox that was talked about before is known as Zeno of Elea's "Achilles and the turtle". Mathematicaly, it's the sum of a geometrical series of reason 1/2.
Originally posted by Molloy
Indeed. These South-American rythms are interesting for Joe-average musicians, because they are complex enough to be challenging yet manageable (i.e. it's not one of those African, Indian or Javanese gamelan rythmical insanities - those are proof though that non-professionals can pull out some wicked stuff
Wait--I was under the impression that in India and Indonesia, the musicians were pretty much as professional as you're gonna get--5 years of apprenticeship and all that, y'know?
