• TalkBass has been independent since 1998. Add your voice.
    Create a free account to reply to discussions, view embedded media, and browse with fewer display ads.
    Join freeLog in
    Want zero display ads or expanded classifieds tools? Compare plans.

Couple Q's About Ampless IEM Performance

bucephylus

Supporting Member
Aug 18, 2002
12,451
18,886
Central Ohio
Looking for some answers about gigging without amps and everyone wearing IEM's.

First, Volume Control. Yeah, yeah, I know it's a virtual slider on the board. What I mean is:
a) in normal gigging, the drums are the typical volume level around which everyone else sets volume to achieve a good mix. A good drummer raises and lowers dynamics in accordance with the tune and band adjusts as appropriate.
b) unless playing on a digital set, the drums are the only instrument that are acoustically loud without amplification.

So, with everyone going direct, the only stage sound left is the drums. But, if the drummer, along with everyone else is in IEM's; then the drummer's reference is whatever IEM feed they are getting vs the acoustic volume, since the IEM is pretty much acoustically isolating. We have a younger somewhat inexperienced drummer in the band. One thing I notice is that the IEM feed appears to be providing an inaccurate reference to the drummer for his level; such that he has more of a tendency to pound. So, the question is how to get the drummer in IEM's, while retaining his/her sense of the overall mix level. If that makes sense.

Second, Small Gigs. The question above is somewhat irrelevant for larger loud gigs, where you can let the drummer pound, and it doesn't so much matter because the FOH output makes the drum level moot. But, what happens in smaller clubs that don't want the band blowing their patrons out the door. How do you use IEM's in small clubs? Again, I know there is a volume knob; but, as above, that doesn't apply to the drummer.

One of my current gigs is dead set on everybody playing ampless. I was originally in favor of learning to gig this way. But, I am having trouble with the practical aspects in small venues with a young drummer who is still learning, and now wearing cans such that his awareness has become isolated to the IEM feed. Any suggestions? Thanks!
 
There is no getting by a drummer who plays too loud. Whether the drummer is monitoring through cans or through amps/monitors on stage typically has little bearing on how loud he is playing. It takes discipline on his part.

Yesterday we were playing in a small room, for seated guests having dinner but we were asked to play pop and rock tunes (not the typical background jazz). For all of the band except the drummer (who are all ampless), we could play with as much force and verve as we wanted to. The singer had to be a little bit careful not to be acoutically to loud (tables were close to the stage). The drummer had to really adjust - he is a true professional and he did. But that is the nature of drums.
 
Yea, the drummer needs to control their dynamics - like any other band member does.
Good ones will - with out without IEM's.. bad ones.. well.. you know!

NOT ever played with "young" drummers outside of church.. Every band I've been in have all agreed we don't want to go thru the growing pains with them.
Congrats on taking on that challenge tho... :)
Those I play with at church are behind a shield [or in a full cage] and wearing cans, so not really and issue for the rest of us on IEM's.
The one thing with being all IEM is having to get in the habit of mic'ing everything, even on small gigs - so you can hear everybody.
To be honest, I'd expect it's up to "friends" in the audience to provide feedback on drums being too loud if you are all IEM... and you guys
I'll take IEM's [and protecting my old-guy hearing] over ringing cymbals and loud tom's next to my head.. any day!!
 
There is no getting by a drummer who plays too loud. Whether the drummer is monitoring through cans or through amps/monitors on stage typically has little bearing on how loud he is playing. It takes discipline on his part.

Yesterday we were playing in a small room, for seated guests having dinner but we were asked to play pop and rock tunes (not the typical background jazz). For all of the band except the drummer (who are all ampless), we could play with as much force and verve as we wanted to. The singer had to be a little bit careful not to be acoutically to loud (tables were close to the stage). The drummer had to really adjust - he is a true professional and he did. But that is the nature of drums.
Thanks for the reply. In this case, the drummer is a good cat, who is still learning the ropes. Meanwhile, the band is going full bore IEM. It's not that the drummer can't control his volume. The problem is that with the cans on, he is so isolated, that he doesn't directly get his acoustic volume. The problem is the disconnection, not the player.
 
Yea, the drummer needs to control their dynamics - like any other band member does.
Good ones will - with out without IEM's.. bad ones.. well.. you know!

NOT ever played with "young" drummers outside of church.. Every band I've been in have all agreed we don't want to go thru the growing pains with them.
Congrats on taking on that challenge tho... :)
Those I play with at church are behind a shield [or in a full cage] and wearing cans, so not really and issue for the rest of us on IEM's.
The one thing with being all IEM is having to get in the habit of mic'ing everything, even on small gigs - so you can hear everybody.
To be honest, I'd expect it's up to "friends" in the audience to provide feedback on drums being too loud if you are all IEM... and you guys
I'll take IEM's [and protecting my old-guy hearing] over ringing cymbals and loud tom's next to my head.. any day!!
Right. The drum shield makes the drum level on stage much less of an issue. I'm not sure they are practical on the small club stages, of course.

This is a band with two fathers and sons. Drummer is the lead guitarist's son. They're good folks. More generally, I completely prefer playing in bands with wildly different age groups. In fact, I am kind of a reverse discrimination discriminator in this respect. First, how else do you pass on the legacy to those who will take it elsewhere? Second, I am a big fan of the quote from SITSOM, which said of the Motown front people and the Funk Brothers, "they had the talent, and we had the experience."

Diversity rules.
 
  • Like
Reactions: s0c9
No issues with the diversity.. I play with "kids" at church on a regular basis.
I generally prefer they learn the skills somewhere other than my club/corp band tho'... I'm sure you can understand...
 
  • Like
Reactions: bucephylus
The one tip I heard, and I've used it myself, is turn up his IEM volume to get him to play more softly. It may not work, but you can literally announce to him that you want to do that so that the FOH drum levels are where they need to be (with help of friend in the audience that judges levels). That way, he hears as loud as he wants, yet plays a bit softer. May not work, but may be worth trying.
 
  • Like
Reactions: bucephylus
The one tip I heard, and I've used it myself, is turn up his IEM volume to get him to play more softly. It may not work, but you can literally announce to him that you want to do that so that the FOH drum levels are where they need to be (with help of friend in the audience that judges levels). That way, he hears as loud as he wants, yet plays a bit softer. May not work, but may be worth trying.
Exactly. I understood that to be what @FutureTense was suggesting. I like it. Going to try that.
 
  • Like
Reactions: FutureTense
Thought i would offer some advice on this one that might be helpful.
I am a bass player but also an audio engineer.
My band plays gigs weekly, we use iems and i no longer take an amp to 99% of gigs.

The gear.
This part is pretty damn important.
- iem buds. For drummers and bass players it is highly important that you use triple driver iems. Otherwise you simply will not have clarity of your bass in your ears. (I use shure se535s) This is not a thing you want to be stingy with.
- the mixer. Everyone in your band should have the ability to change their own iem mix easily mid gig. Ideally there should be enough sends on the mixer to provide two channels per iem. (I use a presonus rm16ai)

Stereo vs mono iems
Ill go on the record and say stereo is soooooo much clearer and also gives you a fuller sound without that feeling of isolation that a lot of people complain about when using iems. If you have enough sends on your desk, go stereo.
It also allows you to stereo pan in your ears for clarity.
Eg. In my ears i have my bass Centre, my voice Centre, lead singer far left, backup singer and guitar far right and drums in stereo. This means everything has its separate place in my ears and nothing fights with anything else.

Drums
We use both electric and acoustic drums depending on the gig.
Acoustic - overheads in stereo. Kick and snare (if necessary) Centre
Electric - stereo send to desk

Hope that helps


After edit: with stereo vs mono. You will hear better and at much lower volumes with stereo.
 
  • Like
Reactions: s0c9
Right, those look pretty nice. Don't know if they want spend the $ on yet another set of Westones.

Anyone here on TB have any experience with these vs the sealed units?
Right, those look pretty nice. Don't know if they want spend the $ on yet another set of Westones.

Anyone here on TB have any experience with these vs the sealed units?

I am using the Westone AM-30 with the 3 drivers. I love them, but I'm not sure the "Ambient" thing makes much of a difference. I still have to pull my earpiece out to hear whats being said to me unless they talk really loud about 1 foot away and can't hear my speaker cabinet at all.

I am playing an SVT-CL head into a 410HLF cab, but I'm hearing all my bass through the IEM's, to the point that I'm considering switching to one of the All tube Portaflex heads that can run without a speaker load. The amp on stage is doing nothing for me and only serving to muddy up the drum mic's and break my back at load in/out.
 
  • Like
Reactions: bucephylus
I am using the Westone AM-30 with the 3 drivers. I love them, but I'm not sure the "Ambient" thing makes much of a difference. I still have to pull my earpiece out to hear whats being said to me unless they talk really loud about 1 foot away and can't hear my speaker cabinet at all.

I am playing an SVT-CL head into a 410HLF cab, but I'm hearing all my bass through the IEM's, to the point that I'm considering switching to one of the All tube Portaflex heads that can run without a speaker load. The amp on stage is doing nothing for me and only serving to muddy up the drum mic's and break my back at load in/out.
Those are the same phones I'm using. I agree that the amp becomes of questionable value.
 
I have the AM-20's and have found that they are more effective in pulling in ambient sound if you can turn down the In-Ears as much as possible. If I start all the way down and bring it up just enough to clarify the vocals and add definition to my bass sound, it works pretty well. I can hear what I need from the drums and guitar amps without them being in my mix.
I could see that. Guitar player in my band is running direct with amp sim, key player has 5 keyboards all direct. So right now the only thing to hear on stage is drums and bass and vocals.