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Cover Charge? What Cover Charge?
- Thread starter plankspanker13
- Start date
That does not mean he cannot find out, but then, that might cut into his insulting the intelligence of the responders.
Interesting, considering the OP's posts have expressed an almost pompous reaction to questioning his (and his friend's) legal knowledge, even though his post clearly shows that his legal understanding of the situation is thoroughly lacking.
I'm not sure I can go along with hsech, though. He says "titty babies" as though it's a bad thing.
That does not mean he cannot find out, but then, that might cut into his insulting the intelligence of the responders.
Interesting, considering the OP's posts have expressed an almost pompous reaction to questioning his (and his friend's) legal knowledge, even though his post clearly shows that his legal understanding of the situation is thoroughly lacking.
I'm not sure I can go along with hsech, though. He says "titty babies" as though it's a bad thing.
Titty babies...that is some good stuff. I will also use it and claim credit in my local area.
So, first, I didn't say that he couldn't meet demands about a possible contract. For all I know he's requesting copies in triplicate with a pdf for easy posting, as we speak. IMO, that someone, who is demanding that another forum member produce evidence or documentation in a thread, expects anything more than a whiff of a fart sent in their general direction surprises me a little...but that's just me.
As to his reaction, it does seem a bit intransigent and defensive for someone whose closing words in the OP were "I thus welcome everyone's take on this," but it's not necessarily surprising because some of the responses got a bit sharp...stuff like idiot, crazy, asinine (I think "idiot" and "crazy" came up a few times each).
Again, just my opinion, but I think we can disagree and even be a little disagreeable without being so caustic and derisive.
It sounds to me like the "legal eagle" got him worked up about maybe getting some serious compensation for this. If your contract, whether on paper, oral, or otherwise specified, states you get a cut of the door, then your band deserves a cut of that. If your contract does not state that you get a cut of the door, then negotiate better in the future. That's my advice.
And never take legal advice from a "legal eagle", unless they also happen to be an attorney (or are able to get actual legal advice from an attorney). Even if you are in the right and have to go to court for compensation, you're going to have to hire a lawyer as the establishment will surely be armed with one, and the legal world is not a place for the inexperienced. Trust me, I've had to represent myself enough times (I have a decent legal background, but IANAL) to know that having a lawyer fight for you makes all the difference in the world. And the worst thing about lawyers is that they need to get paid. So in the end it probably wouldn't be worth it even if you won.
And never take legal advice from a "legal eagle", unless they also happen to be an attorney (or are able to get actual legal advice from an attorney). Even if you are in the right and have to go to court for compensation, you're going to have to hire a lawyer as the establishment will surely be armed with one, and the legal world is not a place for the inexperienced. Trust me, I've had to represent myself enough times (I have a decent legal background, but IANAL) to know that having a lawyer fight for you makes all the difference in the world. And the worst thing about lawyers is that they need to get paid. So in the end it probably wouldn't be worth it even if you won.
Cops/Agents (both Federal and local)are trained to detect and apprehend bad guys. That training of course includes a more than the average person's knowledge of applicable regulations/statutes, but in the end their knowledge is MUCH less than that of the DA's or Agency general council they work with.
In my job, I often supply Federal law enforcement (special agents in my case, not Federal police) with evidence to support enforcement actions. It is remarkable how many times the field agent thinks a case is a slam dunk and then the Agency General Council moves to drop the case or negotiate a rinky dink settlement because they know that the case might not stand up if it goes before an administrative Law Judge or other court.
In my job, I often supply Federal law enforcement (special agents in my case, not Federal police) with evidence to support enforcement actions. It is remarkable how many times the field agent thinks a case is a slam dunk and then the Agency General Council moves to drop the case or negotiate a rinky dink settlement because they know that the case might not stand up if it goes before an administrative Law Judge or other court.
I seem to interpret the first statement as something of a threat. And the second sentence appears to be going down the toilet.
Cliff, you are the epitome of playing music past 50. I really enjoy hearing about how much fun you have with your gigs.
Yeah, without that key information, nothing can really be determined about the situation.
You guys got no case from what I understand of civil law. Anything the venue may have said to patrons regrading the purpose of the cover charge would have no bearing on your contract to play in exchange for money. Any fraud would be between the patron, who paid the cover thinking it would go to you, And the venue.
All you have are misappropriation of publicity rights (which might not exist in AZ; it does in CA) and maybe, maybe some interference with prospective economic advantage, but that'd be a stretch. Since you presumably got paid what you were promised verbally beforehand, the whole case would be hard. Judges usually don't have much patience for "But we could have made even more money if we had thought to negotiate this term at the time we agreed to play!"
Next time get it all in writing and include potential cover charges in your standard contract.
That doesn't mean what the venue did was right. Lesson learned.
All you have are misappropriation of publicity rights (which might not exist in AZ; it does in CA) and maybe, maybe some interference with prospective economic advantage, but that'd be a stretch. Since you presumably got paid what you were promised verbally beforehand, the whole case would be hard. Judges usually don't have much patience for "But we could have made even more money if we had thought to negotiate this term at the time we agreed to play!"
Next time get it all in writing and include potential cover charges in your standard contract.
That doesn't mean what the venue did was right. Lesson learned.
I wonder if the "Legal Eagle" is somehow related to Harvey Birdman, Attorney at Law. Is it like some sort of bar association of avian-related law practitioners?
Not everything has to go to lawsuit.
I would definitely contact the management at this venue and discuss what happened the other night. Don't let something like this go on without addressing it. Let them know what you expect and get clarifications on what they expect.
If the venue is going to charge a cover, that is something that should have been communicated to your group well ahead of time.
As far as a cover charge goes I think 80% of the door price minus fees for doorman\bouncer is good a deal.
According to your numbers from earlier on, that means they owe you $700 bucks. Not a ton of money when you split it amongst all the members in the band, but as you said it the precedence that is important.
Anyway be non-threatening but firm in your discussions and I'm sure you will get a much better result than the legal route. Win-Win scenarios are much better than win-lose ones.
I would definitely contact the management at this venue and discuss what happened the other night. Don't let something like this go on without addressing it. Let them know what you expect and get clarifications on what they expect.
If the venue is going to charge a cover, that is something that should have been communicated to your group well ahead of time.
As far as a cover charge goes I think 80% of the door price minus fees for doorman\bouncer is good a deal.
According to your numbers from earlier on, that means they owe you $700 bucks. Not a ton of money when you split it amongst all the members in the band, but as you said it the precedence that is important.
Anyway be non-threatening but firm in your discussions and I'm sure you will get a much better result than the legal route. Win-Win scenarios are much better than win-lose ones.
When a bar/venue charges a cover charge for any reason, it has nothing to do with the band. Especially if you're playing cover songs. It has everything to do with Public Performance of music, though. That falls under the PROs (BMI, ASCAP, SESAC) with which each venue must pay a blanket license fee to every year. If you were playing original music (you guys wrote it), and you are signed up with BMI, you can get paid some of that cover charge. It's called BMIlive, and it's a website where you put your setlist in, and a portion of what that venue pays BMI each year is divided among the people who wrote the songs you played during that performance.
I would personally be a little angry with who booked your gig, as they are the ones who didn't keep you in the loop as far as what the contract was, or if there even was one. I've learned that even if there is a cover charge, put out a tip jar too! Sell merchandise. Do what you can to make the $$$. Unless you're a member of the Musician's Union, you really don't have many rights in this situation.
I would personally be a little angry with who booked your gig, as they are the ones who didn't keep you in the loop as far as what the contract was, or if there even was one. I've learned that even if there is a cover charge, put out a tip jar too! Sell merchandise. Do what you can to make the $$$. Unless you're a member of the Musician's Union, you really don't have many rights in this situation.
Other than perhaps for the band's own promotional purposes (e.g., making a Facebook flyer that says "Band X at Venue Y. Friday Night! $5 Cover") then why is that something that should have been communicated to the band? If the venue is going to raise its drink prices by 10% that night, should that be communicated to the band? If it's going to put two extra bartenders on the schedule for that night, should that be communicated to the band? If it's going to keep the kitchen open another hour, should that be communicated to the band? The bar has a right to operate its own business as it sees fit. If that is charging a cover without okay-ing that with its contractor, it's well within its purview to do so. If not, I'd be interested in seeing the relevant statutes and supporting case law that says otherwise.
They don't owe the band anything except what was originally negotiated. If that only includes a flat rate for services rendered, then the venue does not owe the band $700.
Like I said earlier, a venue paying a band a flat-rate while charging its patron a cover at the door is not a new or novel concept here.
I don't know about anyone else, but I was thinking more like asking the BL "hey, did we get paid what we were promised, or were we supposed to get part of that door?" That would pretty much cover it. The OP wanted everyone's "take." It seems like most everyone would have more of a "take" on what actually happened if they knew what actually happened.
Suing or any other tactics to try to gain anything from the venue are a huge waste of time.
Situations like this are why God gave man the glorious feeling called Petty Revenge. It's simple:
1) get a few dozen cartons of eggs. Leave them in the sun for about a week.
2) Someone take a dump in a bag.
3) Find a friend with a fast car, ski masks, and is willing to be involved in a Class B misdemeanor.
4) If I have to tell you what to do next then you are no longer allowed to be in a rock and roll band.
I promise. It will feel good.
Situations like this are why God gave man the glorious feeling called Petty Revenge. It's simple:
1) get a few dozen cartons of eggs. Leave them in the sun for about a week.
2) Someone take a dump in a bag.
3) Find a friend with a fast car, ski masks, and is willing to be involved in a Class B misdemeanor.
4) If I have to tell you what to do next then you are no longer allowed to be in a rock and roll band.
I promise. It will feel good.
