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Crossover Slope Selection?

Zooberwerx

Gold Supporting Member
Dec 21, 2002
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28,110
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Virginia Beach, VA
The dbx 234 is fairly clear-cut...LR 24 dB (state variable....whatever that is). My dbx DriveRack, OTOH, offers variable LR and BW filters for:

*Subs - low pass and high pass

*Mains - high pass

Any rules of thumb I should follow when programming? I believe both filter types are adjustable from 6 - 24 dB or something like that. Don't know if this helps but I'm running the xover @ 85 hz.

Riis
 
Would need to know what kind of speakers you are using. 85 seams a little low to me. If I was you I would PM Agedhorse and he could give you the right answer.

The cabs are Carvin 1503 3-ways (15") and low-end Yorkville 18" subs. Conventional wisdom says use a xover freq. of 100 hz but a local soundguy suggested using 85 hz as the 15" mains would do a better job of handling the 100 - 165 region. Doesn't appear to be straining and sounds decent. Here are the rest of the settings:

Tops

*Xover - 85 hz

*Slope / HPF - LR 12-18 dB

Bottoms

*Xover - 85 hz

*Slope / HPF - 50 hz BW 18-24 dB

*Slope / LPF - LR 12-18 dB

Riis
 
Zooberwerx, I don't know enough about the difference between crossover filters to be of any help. If you didn't PM Agedhorse you might try posting a thread over here. [Invalid or Expired Link Removed] There are alot of posters over there that could give you the correct answer.
 
All the filters will react differently at the crossover frequency chosen.
I would go with a higher xover frequency with the tops, I'd bet you have a huge low end bump around the chosen frequency. 50hz seems a bit high for the subs and I would chose a higher slope for the low pass too. Without actually hearing your system, this is as general as I can be. Also, if you are eqing the system a lot near the crossover frequencies, that is s good indication to tune the system using different filters and slopes, before you have to touch the eq.

Tops
*Xover - 85 hz
*Slope / HPF - LR 12-18 dB

Bottoms
*Xover - 85 hz
*Slope / HPF - 50 hz BW 18-24 dB
*Slope / LPF - LR 12-18 dB
 
All the filters will react differently at the crossover frequency chosen.
I would go with a higher xover frequency with the tops, I'd bet you have a huge low end bump around the chosen frequency. 50hz seems a bit high for the subs and I would chose a higher slope for the low pass too. Without actually hearing your system, this is as general as I can be. Also, if you are eqing the system a lot near the crossover frequencies, that is s good indication to tune the system using different filters and slopes, before you have to touch the eq.

Tops
*Xover - 85 hz
*Slope / HPF - LR 12-18 dB

Bottoms
*Xover - 85 hz
*Slope / HPF - 50 hz BW 18-24 dB
*Slope / LPF - LR 12-18 dB

Thanks Paulie!

I chose the sub's high pass @ 50 hz as that coincides with the enclosure rating. I can drop it to 40 hz, no problem. The 85 hz xover point controversy now makes sense as, all too frequently, bumps occur in this region.

Just maybe dbx knew what it was doing when it set all the slope filters @ LR 24 on the 234.

Riis
 
Some generalities on crossover filters when crossing over similar types of cabinets (front loaded subs and LF sections):

Generally 24dB/octave LR filters work well because they sum (power) nicely acousticly around the crossover point. The type of filter depicts the shape of the response around the knee. Butterworth is a sharper, steeper initial transition and works better for high pass filters on the subs. Phase response out of band is a little more friendly too.

Generally, the sub's high pass filter should be somewhere between the -3dB and -10dB response point on the sub, closer to the -3dB point if you plan on driving the snot out of your boxes.

Generally, 100Hz LPF is about right for most subs and tops, and if the subs are folded horns, or the tops are 10's/12's, lower than 100 Hz is probably not indicated. In this case, folded horns are most efficient between about 70Hz and 150Hz, so rolling off at the beginning of the highest efficiency area of the sub's response curve is like shooting yourself in the foot. If you have a bump in the response, use your 1/3 octave eq to bring it down a little. Generally the bump due to the room acoustics along with system efficiency occurs berween 100-125Hz, at least in the larget rooms I typically work.

Also, unless you really know what you are doing, keep your boxes powered to between the RMS and 1.5x the RMS speaker rating and be sure all limiters on amps are engaged.

Hope this helps.
 
This is all I could find on the Yorkville 1 X 18" sub:

Frequency Response (Hz +/- 3db) 60 - 300 hz

...and the Carvin 1503 mains:

52 hz (-3 dB)

Edit: Given the specs. above, would anybody set a crossover point higher than 100 hz and, if so, what's the rationale? IIRC, nothing intelligible (i.e. speech) should be present at the subs.

Riis
 
On your subs, HPF at 50Hz and try crossing over at ~110Hz, that should get you reasonable power bandwidth allocation.
 
That's the high pass filter on the subs at 50Hz.

Also, when setting your gains, start with your amps all the way up, the crossover input at 0dB (nominal unity), your sub (or low) out at +3 to +6dB to taste and your high out to 0dB (or nominal unity).

This should get you pretty darn close, I would start with the sub out at +3dB myself.
 
That's the high pass filter on the subs at 50Hz.

Also, when setting your gains, start with your amps all the way up, the crossover input at 0dB (nominal unity), your sub (or low) out at +3 to +6dB to taste and your high out to 0dB (or nominal unity).

This should get you pretty darn close, I would start with the sub out at +3dB myself.

Yes, HPF @ 50 hz! Thanks for the correction.

Negative on the "amps all the way up". The dbx DriveRack program / protocol suggests setting each amp attenuator (3 QSC RMX's) @ ~ 11:00. The limiters kick in @ ~ -14 db. I was a little wary so I free-handed that portion of the set-up (unity gain, headroom) via the procedure suggested in the back of the manual. Surprisingly enough, my results were near-identical to the DriveRack preset. Plenty of volume, low noise, and no clipping in any of the input / ouput stages.

I'll try the -0- / +3. Thanks again!

Riis
 
Yes, HPF @ 50 hz! Thanks for the correction.

Negative on the "amps all the way up". The dbx DriveRack program / protocol suggests setting each amp attenuator (3 QSC RMX's) @ ~ 11:00. The limiters kick in @ ~ -14 db. I was a little wary so I free-handed that portion of the set-up (unity gain, headroom) via the procedure suggested in the back of the manual. Surprisingly enough, my results were near-identical to the DriveRack preset. Plenty of volume, low noise, and no clipping in any of the input / ouput stages.

I'll try the -0- / +3. Thanks again!

Riis

This does not sound correct at all. In fact, it sounds wrong if you do the math. -14dB below the +20dB digital max out = +6dB maximum drive, and with the attenuatotrs down to 11:00 on the RMX-2450, that's going to be roughly an 8 dB sensitivity reduction from a nominal amp sensitivity of (roughly) +4dB or a +12 signal required to achieve rated output. You can achieve +6 which is 6dB too low (aka 1/4-power threshold). Are you bridging your amps by any chance?

Maybe Bob Lee can jump in here and double-check my math?
 
This does not sound correct at all. In fact, it sounds wrong if you do the math. -14dB below the +20dB digital max out = +6dB maximum drive, and with the attenuatotrs down to 11:00 on the RMX-2450, that's going to be roughly an 8 dB sensitivity reduction from a nominal amp sensitivity of (roughly) +4dB or a +12 signal required to achieve rated output. You can achieve +6 which is 6dB too low (aka 1/4-power threshold). Are you bridging your amps by any chance?

Maybe Bob Lee can jump in here and double-check my math?

Good point...I need to re-check my DriveRack settings but you're probably right. I think the limiters are only dialed down by -6 dB at the most, not 14 as originally stated. I can't recall if I'm using my results or the dbx defaults which are closer to -3 dB. That's the problem with dbx programming protocol....when specifying amp type for the mains, it assumes you're using a single power amp in stereo mode.

All 3 amps are bridged (2 1450's for the mains and a single 2450 for the subs). A 1450 bridged provides 800 watts which is within spec for a Carvin 1503 (they recommend 600-1200 watts or thereabouts).

Thanks...we'll figure it out.


Riis
 
With that kind of popwer, you want to be sure your limiter specs are accurate.

Bridging generally shifts the amp sensitivity up by 6dB so that factors into the calculation.