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Cutting Through the Mix

T

tuckomf

Jan 18, 2012
124
4
Neenah, WI
#1
I see a lot of posts here about certain basses and amps "cutting through the mix (and by certain, I mean every bass and amp that's discussed on this forum). I also see it on the guitar forums in the same fashion. I'd assume it probably holds true for drums, horns, pianos etc. So with that in mind, if everything is "cutting through the mix," is there really a mix at all? Maybe this belongs in general discussion or somewhere else. I am genuinely curious though. This term "cutting through the mix" keeps showing up everywhere, and it seems like the opposite of what I find desirable. I'm always on the lookout for "blends well with just about anything." When my band comes together, I'm looking for an aural smoothie of every instrument on stage. I want the mix. I want a musical e pluribus unum, where everything compliments everything else. Granted, I want the parts to be distinguishable, and maybe that's what people mean by the term, but every time I see it, I think of one of those awful bands where someone is on an ego trip, and they crank their treble and tweak the volume to stand out over the rest of the band.
Anyone else?
 
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#3
Thats a good point. I believe as a bass player, supporting the song is the most important thing. That said, I have recently given up the 'scooped' eq settings for a more 'flat' setting, and I am very pleased with the result, which has been that I can hear definition in my playing with the band, and I get compliments on the sound, never had that when I had the mids way down. The only drawback is I don't hear that HUGE bottom end I loved for so many years.
 
#4
Floyd Eye said:
It simply means to be heard. Or more accurately, to not be lost in the mix. Obviously the goal is always to have all instruments mixing well together.
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That's right, in my way of thinking. If an instrument is 'cutting through the mix', it means it is being heard distinctly. It doesn't mean it is overpowering anything else.
 
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#5
I kinda feel the same way as the op. "Cutting through" usually seems to mean "I can hear myself best", which is fine but not necessarily always appropriate or best serving the music. Sometimes, yes, you want yourself & your part to be loud & proud - but if everyone is trying to "cut through" at the same time, yeah you have a problem!

I try to avoid this terminology all together! Indeed I've found that playing something different (phrasing or note selection) generally gives me more satisfaction than trying to 'mow' my way through the ensemble. Getting louder and cranking the high mids is often the fast-track to bigger problems.
 
#6
bjabass said:
Thats a good point. I believe as a bass player, supporting the song is the most important thing. That said, I have recently given up the 'scooped' eq settings for a more 'flat' setting, and I am very pleased with the result, which has been that I can hear definition in my playing with the band, and I get compliments on the sound, never had that when I had the mids way down. The only drawback is I don't hear that HUGE bottom end I loved for so many years.
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I've come full circle on that mid-scoop mess myself. After re-assessing what I was doing and the sound I was going for, I've come around 180 degrees. In the past I was all about the mid-scoop and chingy roundwounds. Now it's sweet mid punch and flatwounds for on-stage. (No, I'm not opening up that container of squiglies, just sayin') Haven't played flats since 1968 until the past couple of months, and I have been able to so effortlessly "cut through the mix" it just astounds me, where in the past it was a constant battle with the guitar for space in the sound. Still use my roundwound bass on maybe 1/4 of the songs, but after a couple I'm itching to switch back.
Since you brought up the low-lows, something I learned as a mix engineer a few decades ago - If you have a lot of low bottom end on both the kick and bass, it can create a huge mess, whether live or in the studio. But it you let one or the other have the low bottom, it will create the illusion in the mix that both have low bottom in their sound, but they're not competing with each other and the overall mix is tighter, clearer and punchier.
 
#7
tuckomf said:
This term "cutting through the mix" keeps showing up everywhere, and it seems like the opposite of what I find desirable.
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I couldn't agree more with you.

I've even head a teacher who once told me about his new bass: "It doesn't sound great by itself, but it's really cutting through the mix." I found that one of the most stupid things to ever come out of a musician's mouth.
 
#8
On a somewhat related note, has anyone tuned in to the Guitar Center Sessions? I watched the Colbie Caillat episode this past weekend. As far as mixes go, I think this is the best I've ever heard. Everything is distinguishable, but nothing in particular stands out.

Invalid Link Removed
 
#10
You don't have to lose the low end to cut through the mix. I occasionally will scoop the mids at home by myself, but it almost never sounds good in a band mix. Bump the low mids at a minimum, keep the bass EQed out of the kick drum and you're golden.
 
#11
I use this term not to mean I want to stomp on everyone else in the band, but that I am heard and blend in with the band, the drummer and rhythm player in particular.

It's also a way to distinguish between an awesome sweet tone you think you have when you play your bass solo'd, and how drastically that can change when you're in the mix. Suddenly that "sweet tone" almost makes you disappear. You need to adjust so you are "sitting in" or "cutting through" the mix.
 
#12
It's tough because terms like "growl", "good" and "cutting through" really aren't well-defined in terms of music!

To me (and the vast majority of my colleagues, both professional and amateur), there's really no way to "cut through" and "sit in" at the same time. They are 2 different things. That doesn't mean that "sitting in" means you aren't heard though. "Cutting through" really does imply a pointed frequency emphasis, imo. :)
 
#13
bjabass said:
Thats a good point. I believe as a bass player, supporting the song is the most important thing. That said, I have recently given up the 'scooped' eq settings for a more 'flat' setting, and I am very pleased with the result, which has been that I can hear definition in my playing with the band, and I get compliments on the sound, never had that when I had the mids way down. The only drawback is I don't hear that HUGE bottom end I loved for so many years.
Click to expand...

This. I've gone with effects, boosted mids, clanky, everything but flat is where it's at. Honestly, I do boost the bass (we are a one guitar, one singer, one bassist band). But I've given up competing with the guitar and found my home in the basement of the mix.

I do it with a 2008 Am STD P-bass, a genz shuttle 12.0 and a 210 and115 markbass cab set up.
 
#14
Freight Train said:
If you have a lot of low bottom end on both the kick and bass, it can create a huge mess, whether live or in the studio. But it you let one or the other have the low bottom, it will create the illusion in the mix that both have low bottom in their sound, but they're not competing with each other and the overall mix is tighter, clearer and punchier.
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YES! YES! YES! A thousand times YES!

Thank you for bringing this up because there are a whole lot of folks out there -- on BOTH sides of the sound board -- who aren't getting it.
 
#15
Better to think of "frequency slotting" and arrangement than "cutting through." In short, through eq and arrangement, each instrument can be heard through space that the other voices in the band leave for it.

For example, in a particular group I might not only trim 900-1.5K to make it easier for vocals and guitar to "own" that space, but I might also ease off on the attack on the 2 & 4 to let the snare through. Similarly, the rest of the band leaves space via eq and arrangement for the bass.
 
#16
yes, according to TB, at some point every rig cuts through the mix, well every rig that a Tb'er owns, so there is really no reason to ask this question anymore, because just like FX and basses, whatever the person answering your thread owns will be the answer they give and, by the end of it you have every amp/fx/bass that is made, so you could have got your answer from a guitar center catalog!
 
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#17
Freight Train said:
If you have a lot of low bottom end on both the kick and bass, it can create a huge mess, whether live or in the studio. But it you let one or the other have the low bottom, it will create the illusion in the mix that both have low bottom in their sound, but they're not competing with each other and the overall mix is tighter, clearer and punchier.
Click to expand...

This is so important. A producer I worked with liked to make the kick sound like "a baseball bat hitting a pillow" (i.e. a dry, short attack), and then let the bass have some tone.
Unfortunately, a lot of the drummers I've worked with focus intently on producing a beautiful tone with their bass drum. (Especially jazz drummers... not that there's anything wrong with them... :D)
One of these instruments needs to be simply percussive for the other to have any audible tone, at least in live rock mixes. (In my experience, anyway.)
 
#18
It's all about balance. Balance in both volume and in frequency. Example: kick drum and bass guitar tend to occupy much of the same frequency range. To get a good mix the frequency range of the kick and the bass need to be complimentary and not overlap too much. Hard-to-impossible to do with your bass' and amp's tone controls. Getting this balance right is the job of the Sound Guy and is not an easy task! Sound Guy needs to get the EQ just right for each instrument and ALSO to get the relative volume levels right - and at each point in the song - and for every song - again NOT so easy!
 
#19
derrico1 said:
Better to think of "frequency slotting" and arrangement than "cutting through." In short, through eq and arrangement, each instrument can be heard through space that the other voices in the band leave for it.

For example, in a particular group I might not only trim 900-1.5K to make it easier for vocals and guitar to "own" that space, but I might also ease off on the attack on the 2 & 4 to let the snare through. Similarly, the rest of the band leaves space via eq and arrangement for the bass.
Click to expand...

Yes. With some basses, for example, what makes for clarity in a solo situation is the presence of upper harmonics. In a band context, however, those harmonics get "canceled out/eaten up" by other instruments (guitar, hi-hats, keys, etc.) and suddenly you really can't hear what you're doing on your instrument. There's no point in playing different notes if they can't be discerned!
 
#20
Let me give an example that we deal with all the time in the (larger scale) live world... getting a bass to SIT well in a mix.

Sometimes, we will see a player with tremendous dynamics. These dynamics can get in the way of the rest of the band and not sit well in the mix relative to everything else going on. As a FOH guy, I will look at ways of managing the dynamics so that on the quieter parts the bass doesn't fall between the cracks and during the louder parts does not dominate and ride on top of the other parts. Compression is the tool that is most commonly used for this, BUT sometimes by making the copression frequency dependant we can reduce only the spectrum that becomes unruly as it becomes loud. Multi-band compression (at least 2 bands), and the judicious choice of attack and release time constants, plus a suitable compression curve (ultimate slope plus knee geometry) can compliment what the player is trying to achieve but in a more refined way that pays respect to the rest of the band as well as the venue acoustics (which the player is not hearing while playing on stage).

Sometimes additional eq is needed at FOH to help the bass sit in the mix IN THE CONTEXT of the auditorium acoustics. Again, what sounds good on stage may not apply out in the audience area because of the effect of room acosutics that may not come into play on stage.

Cutting through is not a term that I would use to describe this, but a player burying themselves is probably a more common scenario by choosing a stage tone that does not (directly) translate into the audience mix. Especually when sending the PA a post eq mix, the voicing of the amp and speakers along with the player's choice of tone ON STAGE may not translate well into the bigger picture.

I generally mix in larger rooms (the smallest I do now is 1000 seats) so take my comments in this context, what I am hearing out front off the stage may be radically different than what I hear when I stand on stage with the bass player. The more pro guys will understand this and go out of their way to work with FOH to get closer to their sound out in the house and work with the PA to get there. It's definately a partnership approach.
 

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