DDP Dominique Di Piazza 'Fretless' Bridges

[Bare Bass]

I'm interested in trying a DDP (Dominique Di Piazza) 'fretless' bridge on a seven-string fretted bass that I'm designing. There appear to be two manufacturers however: Mike Sabre and Günter Eyb.

DiPiazza Fretless Bridge
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The bridge in action:


A few questions:

1.) Does anyone know if there is any difference in tone, quality, or ease of installation between these two DDP bridges?

2.) And does anyone know why two different manufacturers can lay claim to the bridge's "DDP" name. Did Dominique Di Piazza change luthiers while owning rights to the name and design?

3.) Does anyone know if fret size or style makes a difference when using this type of bridge? I'm thinking small, mandolin or banjo frets would work best, but maybe it's the opposite? I'm mainly a fretless player, but I want the frets for chording accuracy, hence the interest in the 'fretless' bridge.

4.) I would like to put a transducer like the Headway Snake3 AG Coaxial Undersaddle Pickup under the bridge and have the bridge 'float' (screwed loosely to the top, with the strings providing the downward pressure on the transducer) over chambered space, with the strings extending beyond the bridge to either a tail-piece secured to solid wood underneath, or some kind of string-through set-up, also through solid wood. Anyone foresee any problems with this?

Thanks!

 

[lz4005]

3.) Does anyone know if fret size or style makes a difference when using this type of bridge? I'm thinking small, mandolin or banjo frets would work best, but maybe it's the opposite? I'm mainly a fretless player, but I want the frets for chording accuracy, hence the interest in the 'fretless' bridge.

4.) I would like to put a transducer like the Headway Snake3 AG Coaxial Undersaddle Pickup under the bridge and have the bridge 'float' (screwed loosely to the top, with the strings providing the downward pressure on the transducer) over chambered space, with the strings extending beyond the bridge to either a tail-piece secured to solid wood underneath, or some kind of string-through set-up, also through solid wood. Anyone foresee any problems with this?

3: Fret size doesn't make a difference. You'd get more sustain out of larger ones, if that matters to you.
4: With buzz bridges like this you have to be able to precisely adjust the height and angle. They can be a pain to set up. Altering it to float could be very difficult.

 

[Bare Bass]

3: Fret size doesn't make a difference. You'd get more sustain out of larger ones, if that matters to you.
4: With buzz bridges like this you have to be able to precisely adjust the height and angle. They can be a pain to set up. Altering it to float could be very difficult.

Thanks, yeah, I would have my luthier set it up for me as part of the build.

Altering it to float would be a gamble, but what I mean is instead of screwing the bridge down tight, screw it down a bit looser or use pins in place of screws to hold it in place, and then let the string tension hold it down on the transducer underneath. It wouldn't be a truly floating bridge in the sense that it would come off if all the strings were removed at once.

 

[lz4005]

Altering it to float would be a gamble, but what I mean is instead of screwing the bridge down tight, screw it down a bit looser or use pins in place of screws to hold it in place, and then let the string tension hold it down on the transducer underneath. It wouldn't be a truly floating bridge in the sense that it would come off if all the strings were removed at once.

What would that get you? It's either on a piece of wood that is solid enough to screw into or it's not.
Loose screws just give you unwanted vibration. Pins would work fine, but why?

 

[Bare Bass]

What would that get you? It's either on a piece of wood that is solid enough to screw into or it's not.
Loose screws just give you unwanted vibration. Pins would work fine, but why?

Directly under the bridge would be a 1/4" top, something like Douglas Fir or Maple. On the sides of the bridge would be a dual centerblock, each wall about 1-1.5" thick so the bridge could anchor there, on both of its sides, if the mounting holes are placed like a Hipshot D style bridge. The idea is to have as much of the top freely vibrating under the bridge as possible, but with a little centerblock underneath on either side to reduce feedback. Most semi-hollobodies seem to have the bridge mounted on a solid centerblock with two chambers on either side. My design would have three chambers--on the sides and down the middle. A tailpiece or string-thru behind (not under) the bridge would anchor the strings to the body, completely solid wood closer to the edge/end of the body. The reason I wouldn't want completely tightened screws is that this might dampen the effect of the string pressure on the transducer, but maybe just finger-tight would be OK?

 

[lz4005]

The reason I wouldn't want completely tightened screws is that this might dampen the effect of the string pressure on the transducer, but maybe just finger-tight would be OK?

It doesn't work like that. A solid connection results in more string vibration reaching the pickup.

Loose screws rattle and that vibration will go through your amp.

If there's enough downforce from string tension and break angle to hold the bridge in place, as with an upright, you won't need screws at all.

Tight screws or no screws are fine, but don't use loose screws.

 

[Bare Bass]

It doesn't work like that. A solid connection results in more string vibration reaching the pickup.

Loose screws rattle and that vibration will go through your amp.

If there's enough downforce from string tension and break angle to hold the bridge in place, as with an upright, you won't need screws at all.

Tight screws or no screws are fine, but don't use loose screws.

Yah, I should've said 'looser' screws, as in fingertight. Pins might still be the way to go. It would be good to get some other opinions, but ultimately it will probably be my luthier's decision. What I'm trying to do here is gather information so that I can make an informed decision should he provide options.

Any thoughts on the difference between the two different brands? This is something my luthier may not have an opinion about. It appears that Mike Sabre might've been the original? I also like the woodier look of his version better. It's a little more expensive, but if it also sounds better or is easier to install or is more durable then it's worth it.

It would also be good to know if anyone has tried making something like this themselves. It would be cool if it were possible to make it almost entirely out of wood.

Thanks!

 

[vin97]

You want the whole bridge to float or just the saddles?

I'm pretty sure there will be no sound difference between the two manufacturers. I know that Günther Eyb uses a 12" radius for the rosewood strips, I suspect Mike Sabre uses the same. That's basically the only thing that could make a difference in terms of sound. Adjusting the angle of the saddles is basically the same process as adjusting string height at the bridge of a fretless bass.
Apart from that, both bridges don't require drilling on Fender basses.

I don't see a reason why you wouldn't be able to build it yourself out of wood (apart from increased wear of course), although, similar to the floating bridge idea, I don't understand what you are hoping of achieving on a solidbody instrument.

 

[Bare Bass]

You want the whole bridge to float or just the saddles?

I'm pretty sure there will be no sound difference between the two manufacturers. I know that Günther Eyb uses a 12" radius for the rosewood strips, I suspect Mike Sabre uses the same. That's basically the only thing that could make a difference in terms of sound. Adjusting the angle of the saddles is basically the same process as adjusting string height at the bridge of a fretless bass.
Apart from that, both bridges don't require drilling on Fender basses.

I don't see a reason why you wouldn't be able to build it yourself out of wood (apart from increased wear of course), although, similar to the floating bridge idea, I don't understand what you are hoping of achieving on a solidbody instrument.

Thanks for the feedback!

I should've been clearer in Point 4 of the original post that it's for a semi-hollowbody bass. The bridge would be over chambered space in the middle, with both ends of the bridge mounted to a dual centerblock. So it would be a three-chamber semi-hollowbody.

I think I've found a solution for the transducer. I could affix it under the top, as in an acoustic guitar (for example the K&K Sounds' Pure Pickup), either using some kind of adhesive (The Pure Pickup | K&K Sound) or sandwiching it between the top and a board underneath. The mounting screws of the bridge could be replaced with bolts passing through the bridge, the top, and the board pressing the transducers up into the top. So four layers in all:

Bridge
Top
Transducer
Board

You're right I could buy one of the bridges and then make the base/plate out of wood, and just use their saddles. But I've heard the bridges are a little tricky to install, even for pro luthiers, so it would probably be above my skill level. I'm having a pro luthier make the bass anyway, so it would be up to them whether they would be willing to modify the bridge.

Still curious about how two different manufacturer's ended up with rights to Di Piazza's bridge design, but I guess I could always ask them directly.

One other question: has anyone ever tried one of these bridges with a fretless fingerboard? Just curious. Probably vibrato overkill.

Also, doesn't anyone know of a soundclip /YouTube demo with someone besides Dominique Di Piazza? It would be good to see how it works for a non-virtuoso.

Thanks again.

 

[vin97]

Ok, now the wood thing makes sense.
And you basically want a piezo-bridge?

Installing them is very easy, it's plug-and-play for the Fender hole layout. So, worst case, you'll need someone who can drill accurately.
Adjustment is not really tricky. You have to keep in mind that large changes in saddle/buzz angle will affect string height because the saddle is one piece, meaning that you have adjust them alternatingly (does that word exist?) in small steps (just like you adjust string height to keep the saddle from tilting to one side).
What can be tricky is knowing in which direction to adjust the angle if you are not familiar with setting up a fretless bass. I could give you some advise when you are there (if you want).

I don't think anybody has the rights to that bridge design since it uses a mechanism that has been used on (indian) instruments for thousands of years.

Yes, I tested a version of the Eyb saddle with a harder surface material (Tusq) on my fretless. First off, it has nothing to do with vibrato, you do the vibrato with your fingers (true vibrato is only possible on fretted instruments if you were to tune all strings a little flat and bend every note). Second, realize that the saddles do exactly the same thing as a fretless fingerboard at the area around your fretting finger. Since your fretting fingers are out of the equation with a "fretless bridge" on fretted bass, you will get exactly the same sound out of those saddles as Di Piazza is getting (if set up well).
A fretless fingerboard produces "mwah" (string initially eating into the wood and losing energy, meaning softer attack transient) and some amount of overtones by itself, the only thing you gain out of putting one of those saddles is more (finetuning of the) overtones. This means that a brighter sound is possible without compromising sustain (imitating sound of epoxy coated boards on softer ones with more mwah, or even aggressive sitar-esque sound).

 

[Bare Bass]

Ok, now the wood thing makes sense.
And you basically want a piezo-bridge?

Installing them is very easy, it's plug-and-play for the Fender hole layout. So, worst case, you'll need someone who can drill accurately.
Adjustment is not really tricky. You have to keep in mind that large changes in saddle/buzz angle will affect string height because the saddle is one piece, meaning that you have adjust them alternatingly (does that word exist?) in small steps (just like you adjust string height to keep the saddle from tilting to one side).
What can be tricky is knowing in which direction to adjust the angle if you are not familiar with setting up a fretless bass. I could give you some advise when you are there (if you want).

I don't think anybody has the rights to that bridge design since it uses a mechanism that has been used on (indian) instruments for thousands of years.

Yes, I tested a version of the Eyb saddle with a harder surface material (Tusq) on my fretless. First off, it has nothing to do with vibrato, you do the vibrato with your fingers (true vibrato is only possible on fretted instruments if you were to tune all strings a little flat and bend every note). Second, realize that the saddles do exactly the same thing as a fretless fingerboard at the area around your fretting finger. Since your fretting fingers are out of the equation with a "fretless bridge" on fretted bass, you will get exactly the same sound out of those saddles as Di Piazza is getting (if set up well).
A fretless fingerboard produces "mwah" (string initially eating into the wood and losing energy, meaning softer attack transient) and some amount of overtones by itself, the only thing you gain out of putting one of those saddles is more (finetuning of the) overtones (brighter, sitar-esque sound possible without compromising sustain).

Yah, I'm big into piezo, especially with a semi-hollowbody. Not trying to mimic an upright necessarily, but I do like a woodier or airier sound, and I like how the fingernoise a piezo pickup can detect lends a certain 'breathy' quality to the tone, especially with papery/velvety Pyramid Black Nylon Tapewounds.

It's cool you find the adjustment easy. Mike Sabre said in BassPlayer that the trickiness is what has kept him from mass-marketing the bridges (DiPiazza Fretless Bridge). So maybe anyone with a little technical skill, but certainly any pro luthier, can get them to work probably? In any case, this bass will be fully custom, built from scratch, so a pro luthier will be doing all the work. I'm still not completely convinced I'll go through with the frets + fretless bridge, but if I do go fretted, for chordal accuracy, I think the fretless bridge would be the way to go. Worst case scenario is I don't like the frets and so I defret it and, if it sounds too weird, replace the bridge with a normal piezo bridge.

Funny though, both manufacturers refer to it as a DDP or Dominique di Piazza bridge, as if he has some proprietary rights to the design.

In the videos of di Piazza, he does seem to use a lot of what I thought was vibrato. He moves his finger a lot anyway when sustaining longer notes. Still curious what the effect would be with a fretless. Would it be cool or annoying?

Thanks again for taking time to answer my questions/concerns. Much appreciated!

 

[vin97]

You will need to learn how to adjust the bridge anyway because the optimum angle depends on string thickness and tension and because you will have to compensate for the eventual wear of the surface.
As I said, the tricky thing is knowing in which direction to adjust when your hear a specific sound characteristc. If you don't know that and possibly also have a very bad ear, you will just adjust randomly/blindly without getting anywhere. The thing is, judging by the videos I saw, it's the same problems a lot of fretless players seem to have as well (and then they either blame the instrument or try to cover up their mistake with massive reverb or other effects to make the bass sound "full" or warm again). It makes sense, western music focusses a lot more on the fundamentals instead of the overtones so our ears are not quite as good in that range.

Ok, so apart from that and not adjusting string height all at once and then angle all at once (which would change the string height again a bit), always test the sound across the whole fingerboard because it will slightly affect the angle of the string to the saddle (again, exactly like finding the optimum string height on a fretless).

The DDP bridge won't make a fretless "sound too werid" if you don't set it up like that, however, if you want, you could get a very aggressive sitar buzz (on top of the fretless mwah / smooth attack produced by the fingerboard).

Not sure I understand your question, both fretted and fretless players use vibrato, on a fretted you have to bend which means you can only go up. Bending on a fretless is just unnecessary work.
Here is a difference between fretless and fretted + DDP bridge: On a fretless you have dynamic control over mwah and overtones with your fretting fingers (mostly determined by pressure) while it will always be fixed for the other configuration.

 

[Bare Bass]

You will need to learn how to adjust the bridge anyway because the optimum angle depends on string thickness and tension and because you will have to compensate for the eventual wear of the surface.
As I said, the tricky thing is knowing in which direction to adjust when your hear a specific sound characteristc. If you don't know that and possibly also have a very bad ear, you will just adjust randomly/blindly without getting anywhere. The thing is, judging by the videos I saw, it's the same problems a lot of fretless players seem to have as well (and then they either blame the instrument or try to cover up their mistake with massive reverb or other effects to make the bass sound "full" or warm again). It makes sense, western music focusses a lot more on the fundamentals instead of the overtones so our ears are not quite as good in that range.

Ok, so apart from that and not adjusting string height all at once and then angle all at once (which would change the string height again a bit), always test the sound across the whole fingerboard because it will slightly affect the angle of the string to the saddle (again, exactly like finding the optimum string height on a fretless).

The DDP bridge won't make a fretless "sound too werid" if you don't set it up like that, however, if you want, you could get a very aggressive sitar buzz (on top of the fretless mwah / smooth attack produced by the fingerboard).

Not sure I understand your question, both fretted and fretless players use vibrato, on a fretted you have to bend which means you can only go up. Bending on a fretless is just unnecessary work.
Here is a difference between fretless and fretted + DDP bridge: On a fretless you have dynamic control over mwah and overtones with your fretting fingers (mostly determined by pressure) while it will always be fixed for the other configuration.

Sounds good, thanks again for your input!

 

[ElliottStrong]

I ordered one of these today, anyone else try one?

 

[96tbird]

So is the body going to be chambered from a solid block and a top skin added, or full on acoustic style with separate top, bottom and sides?

And no, for piezo best to have it fully trapped by screws than leave allowance for unwanted sympathetic vibrations to mess up the signal. As strings slop about pressure down ward also varies, if pressure is removed from the elements, they won't produce signal. You don't want intermittent signal.

 

[ElliottStrong]

I ordered one of these today, anyone else try one?

Scratch that, they cancelled my order and refunded my money. He stopped talking orders because he can't keep up.