Dealing with Mediocre Live Sound Support

[Discount Saint]

This is a problem that my band encounters more often than I would like and I'm still trying to sort out what percentage of it is our own fault and how much is on the sound guy / equipment that is support us live.

My band's sound is a bit of a mish-mash of heavy and electronic with heavy influences on Muse, Metric, Depeche Mode, Joy Division and others.. while we try to create space in all of our songs, we have some pretty heavy numbers, while others are more New Wavey and Dancey. In particular, I play with a lot of distortion and fuzz/synth effects, which are a nightmare when my live mix is too high.

Last night we played a Battle of the Bands at our local University (I'm coming to hate these glorified popularity contents, mind you, and will be quite happy to never play another one again).. the first band was pretty clean type rock band -- a good one mind you, some really good songs and what not, but pretty much straight ahead sound-wise, and they got a full sound-check / played a demo song, etc. Subsequently they sounded pretty good when they played their set.

We were second on the docket and have a slightly more complicated setup being that we use a lot of effects and synthy stuff, along with 2 guitars. The sound guy, for us, basically just had our lead guitarist play a few riffs and our singer play a few notes on the keyboard and that was it. Didn't check my level at all, nor that of our singer's guitar.

Our first song was probably one of our heaviest and densest songs as it involves a lot of fairly heavy effects-driven guitar, a lot of synth and a really heavy fuzz/synth bass sound, and right off the bat I was feeling like I was blowing everyone away.. however experience with other mediocre sound setups has told me that it is nearly impossible to gauge what the audience is hearing based on the stage mix, so I soldiered on assuming the sound guy would adjust me or at least let me know to turn down my amp if I was overpowering. Of course the monitors were pretty much just trickling out so I had a hard time hearing was everyone else was doing, mostly because my own amp was overpowering the monitor mix.

It was weird, though -- every now and then I play a venue where I can tell there is a lot of bass, but I can't hear much of it; its almost like it is defused and flabby. I know its not my amp or basic sound because I haven't touched anything from my practice setup and it sounds vastly different in rehearsal. Maybe it has to do with wall-coupling? I dunno..

Anyway, we have a lot of fairly bass-driven songs, and some of the comments afterward were that the bass was way too loud, and they had our singers mic turned up so loud that the PA was distorting.. now, he's a loud singer to start with, but seriously?

I guess my question is.. what are we doing wrong in these situations, or what could be doing better to mitigate crappy PA support. I know our sound is probably not very well suited to these situations in general but it would be nice to be more flexible and have a better handle on what is going out.

Suggestions, thoughts, experience??!

 

[topper]

Sounds like you're right that it's a mix of issues.

I know its not my amp or basic sound because I haven't touched anything from my practice setup and it sounds vastly different in rehearsal

You should probably adjust your amp/eq/effects settings for the room you're playing in. Every room is different and you'll need to modify your settings to adjust. Especially if you have a particular, complicated sound you are going for.

they had our singers mic turned up so loud that the PA was distorting

That's the sound guys fault. The reality is you're going to run into situations like this where the people doing sound just aren't very good.

 

[topper]

Another thought, get a wireless unit for your bass. If you have an opportunity for a sound check (probably not in a battle of the bands situation) you can step off the stage and actually hear what the crowd is hearing.

 

[Discount Saint]

Another thought, get a wireless unit for your bass. If you have an opportunity for a sound check (probably not in a battle of the bands situation) you can step off the stage and actually hear what the crowd is hearing.

You know, I have often thought of this .. good wireless units aren't cheap though from what I've seen. Any model suggestions?

 

[Paulie_m]

You know, I have often thought of this .. good wireless units aren't cheap though from what I've seen. Any model suggestions?

Audio Technica 3000 series are a step or two above the really cheap wireless. When I use one, I hear a little bit of compression going on and there no way around it.

 

[Discount Saint]

Audio Technica 3000 series are a step or two above the really cheap wireless. When I use one, I hear a little bit of compression going on and there no way around it.

Is there a lot of difference between that and the higher quality models?

 

[fokof]

Another thought, get a wireless unit for your bass.

A wireless in not gonna turn a bad soundman to a good one.
Even if you tell the guy what to do.....


If you want a consistant sound from gig to gig , find a good soundman , a hire him/her at all your gigs.
Then you'll have only bad PA and bad room as a factor.

 

[GregShadoan]

Line checking the GTR and KEYS only was not a bright move. No way to midigate that without your own on site sound guy. Battle of the Bands are mostly always horrible. Never the time to properly line check a band, only adds ususally, and most won't let you use a ringer sound guy, thinking that would un-even the playing feild. Also, most have crap sound rigs, and techs, because they have NO budget. Been there.

The only advice I can think of, if you "think" you are too loud on stage, ie. can't hear anyone else, you probably are, and you should turn down a bit. It probably would have worked out better in this paticular instance. As to the VOX being too loud and distorting, it was most likely an effort on the sound guys part to get him audible over the din of the stage. A distorting PA is a dead give away that the PA was crap/underpowered. If your band had played within the preformance envolpe of the PA, it would not have happend, ie. the first band sounded ok.

 

[Discount Saint]

I agree with that -- our amps were likely too loud, and unfortunately we just didn't have any clear direction on where to go with them. I guess we need to not feel needy if we insist on at least checking levels on all the instruments before we play.

 

[Tehrin Cole]

Do you use stage monitors? If so,have the soundman leak a little bit of you into the monitor system. This way,you'll be able to turn your amp down thus,mixing it with the sound coming from the monitors.

Getting a great sound is always a crapshoot,depending on the room you're playing. Some rooms are "bass traps",some rooms have either,stone,or brick walls or padded walls,or even high ceilings. Your soundman has to be on top of this,in order to compensate.

Another thing you should try,being that you're an effect-laden group is to,check all of your levels clean,...no effects! When you get decent levels,play part of one of your songs that way! I say this because,if you can a great clean sound as a group,then adding your effects will only enhance that sound because you'll be able to hear everything!

On a personal note,from one bassist to another: You say that your soundman just plugs you in and leaves you on your own? Don't let him get away with that! FIGHT FOR YOUR SOUND! You're a very important part of this band and you deserve just as much attention as the guitarist,or vocalist! Just like them,you know what you like to hear from your instrument!

I hope some of this helps,and great success to you and your band!

Peace!

 

[georgestrings]

Seems to me that if your band can't set their own stage mix, they're not ready to play out yet - and blaming that problem on the soundman isn't going to fix the problem... It's not uncommon in multi-band shows to go without a proper soundcheck - that's why it's SO important for your band to play at consistant levels, and to form your own basic mix w/out any PA help... That sort of thing is supposed to be sorted out in rehearsals, before you play out...


Generally speaking, the drummer sets the volume - and the other instruments match up to that... Once you've dialed those settings in, mark your amps so that atleast you're "in the ballpark", if you have to take the stage with nothing more than a line check...


- georgestrings

 

[walterw]

think carefully about everybody's tones and how they blend. (recording practices is really good for this.) you want stuff to have its own share of the frequency spectrum and leave room for other stuff.

this gets tough with dense electronic music, but it's still very important. is your fuzz in the same zone as the guitar's distortion? is the keyboard blasting lows all over your bass and highs all over the singer? are the vocals happening in between slabs of sound or right on top of them?

if you can make the band sound good with almost no PA at all (except for vocals, of course), mixing it will be cake for even a meathead soundguy.

 

[Paulie_m]

Is there a lot of difference between that and the higher quality models?

A pretty good model wireless, like the AT 3000 or Sennheiser EW100 is in the $300-$500 range and then add another zero for the best stuff! Higher models will have a cleaner sound due to the circuitry design, as well as, better build quality and more features. All metal construction, computer control, selectable transmitter power, the ability to run 100 units at once, straight up professional stuff that has to work 100% of the time in mission critical situations. For the average user, the extra money is not worth it. The best thing is to play through a few and hear the difference yourself. See what everyone else is using and compare their opinions. One crucial thing is that some wireless transmitters cannot handle the signal from some active basses and distort.

 

[WayneP]

...the first band... got a full sound-check / played a demo song, etc. Subsequently they sounded pretty good when they played their set.

The sound guy, for us, basically just had our lead guitarist play a few riffs and our singer play a few notes on the keyboard and that was it. Didn't check my level at all, nor that of our singer's guitar.

A full sound check for the first act is imperative with these multi-band gigs. Otherwise, how else is the soundman to know if everything is working?

With subsequent acts, a full sound check isn’t all that necessary, as it’s just a matter of moving the mics from one guitar speaker and drum kit to another. The soundman can get your mix fine tuned within a minute or two into your first song. A more complete sound check could have given the soundman the opportunity to fine-tune equalization or warned you guys that you were all too loud, but as others have noted, there often isn’t time to do that with these multi-band gigs (although a monitor mix check for you guys would have been nice). Set changes between bands has to be as short as possible, in order to keep the audience from losing interest and leaving. They aren’t going to stick around for more than the first couple of bands in the line up with 45-minute set changes.

As others have noted, most likely the problem was that you guys were just too loud. You should get in the habit of running your stage amps just loud enough to hear yourselves. Kicking them back so that the speakers aim at your head helps keep the stage volume down.

Regards,
Wayne A. Pflughaupt

 

[Discount Saint]

Seems to me that if your band can't set their own stage mix, they're not ready to play out yet - and blaming that problem on the soundman isn't going to fix the problem... It's not uncommon in multi-band shows to go without a proper soundcheck - that's why it's SO important for your band to play at consistant levels, and to form your own basic mix w/out any PA help... That sort of thing is supposed to be sorted out in rehearsals, before you play out...


Generally speaking, the drummer sets the volume - and the other instruments match up to that... Once you've dialed those settings in, mark your amps so that atleast you're "in the ballpark", if you have to take the stage with nothing more than a line check...


- georgestrings

Yeah, I'm aware of the basics of mixing, but thanks.

In our case we have a fine mix in rehearsal when its just amps and our own P.A., but your statement is pretty presumptuous. The stage mix has more to do with monitors than it does with our amps, and as I stated it wasn't the stage mix that was so much the problem as the fact that certain elements (coincidentally the ones that were not level-checked) were too loud out the front.

I agree that it was likely due to amps, etc, being turned up too loud, but from experience I've learned that what one hears on stage is rarely anywhere close to what is going out to the crowd. The sound on stage also varies wildly from venue to venue which makes it really hard for me to judge whether I'm too loud based on what it sounds like to me. We've played shows before where I thought I was blowing everyone away even worse than this show, but everyone said the mix was great, which was also backed up by video evidence.

Where my issue with the sound setup and maybe the person running the show comes in is that, while I wouldn't necessarily expect a full sound-check, he should have at least checked ALL of the instrument levels to make sure it was all basically copasetic. If I was blasting everyone away it would probably have been fairly evident within a couple of bars of any given song.

I would like to find ways to be more flexible, mind you, such as just playing at a lower volume level in general and allowing the venue's PA to do the work for us, but like you say, the drums kind of dictate how loud the rest of us have to play.

In the end you do rely on the sound person to let you know if something needs to be turned down.

 

[JackANSI]

I'd also suggest, in addition to using as little stage volume as possible, is to head into the studio with a REALLY GOOD engineer (NOT someone thats a friend or that you guys know, you want someone who is going to be brutally honest) behind the desk and let him know that you are interested in tightening up your sound and looking for good feedback that you can take to/apply to your live shows. Be sure to pay him up front so he doesn't hold back for fear of not getting paid.

I listened to the stuff you have on your myspace and it sounds like the keyboardist/singer/guitarist(s) was the one(s) primarily in control of how loud things were. I might be wrong, but thats the way the mix comes across to me. (especially on 'Ghost Fight').

 

[georgestrings]

The stage mix has more to do with monitors than it does with our amps, and as I stated it wasn't the stage mix that was so much the problem as the fact that certain elements (coincidentally the ones that were not level-checked) were too loud out the front.




I agree that it was likely due to amps, etc, being turned up too loud,

You're contradicting yourself here, bud...

Do what you want, but I've played several thousand gigs in my lifetime, and IMO it's more of a band responsibilty to control their own volumes than it is the soundman's role to play volume cop...



- georgestrings

 

[GregShadoan]

IMO it's more of a band responsibilty to control their own volumes than it is the soundman's role to play volume cop...



- georgestrings

I am going to agree with this. I can tell you from experience, that the bands that sound the best in the room, are the ones who already sound really good ON STAGE. Bands that blast too loud off the stage are going to not sound as good than the ones who don't.

Plus the louder you are on stage, the harder it is going to be to hear others on stage irregardless of stage monitors. Makes for a guessing game. Not for good music. Phase effects come into play when you are battleing high output monitors.
Less is ALWAYS more.

 

[zachdecou]

I am going to agree with this. I can tell you from experience, that the bands that sound the best in the room, are the ones who already sound really good ON STAGE. Bands that blast too loud off the stage are going to not sound as good than the ones who don't.

Plus the louder you are on stage, the harder it is going to be to hear others on stage irregardless of stage monitors. Makes for a guessing game. Not for good music. Phase effects come into play when you are battleing high output monitors.
Less is ALWAYS more.

Last year I was able to see in an A/B sort of way how loud stage volume can wreck the house mix, and how low stage volume can make a less than ideal room sound quite nice.
I had the chance to run sound for country star Johnny Lee. His bass man warned me at set up that they were "190 off the deck". Loud in other words. At sound check, I had my hands full putting out fires, and admittedly, feeling like a subpar sound guy as the band proceded to live up to the bass man's warning. Show time had arrived and I was nervous when I threw the curtain as I knew
the band was about to melt some eyebrows in the first dozen rows. Instead I was greeted with a very tight sounding and very low volume band. I instantly had one of the better mixes of my young career. I don't know why the band came off so effing loud at soundcheck, but I suspect they were pushing the room to see what kind of headroom they were looking at. The room wasn't so kind.


The short of it: loud equals crap in the house. Quiet equals butter.

Not really sure this really pertaines to this thread. Just a thought.

Zach

 

[fokof]

If you had your own soundman , he/she would have told you all about your stage sound level probably a while ago.
And it eases the communication when you are paying the person who tells you to turn yourself down.