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Decibel limit and how to measure

L

leftiebass

Oct 17, 2009
154
31
#1
Playing in a 3 piece band. Guitar (6, 12 string, acoustic and electric), keyboards, and me on bass.
We play small places – bistros, restaurant, small bar. Even without a drummer, one member is very concerned about sound levels. I think that we never play too loud enough for concern. He wants us to agree on a decibel limit. If I go along with this I want the numbers to make sense.
So – what is a reasonable and safe level to aim for, and how to measure it? At one point he had a meter right in from of the PA. He said that showed 95 or 100 and that is too loud.
I want to know where to measure from and do breaks count in the average? (Say we play 40 minutes and then take a ten minute break, do you average that or only count when we play.
Anyone have a clear way to look at this?
 
#2
Lots of smartphone apps for this.
I use "decibel ultra" on my I-Phone.

We try to keep averages around 90 to 95 in small clubs and peaks below 100 if possible.

Decibel Ultra does peaks and averages over time. Dv/Dt
No, it's not a real calibrated SPL meter but close enough for government work.

I have a real meter but it's just easier to use the phone.
Very close results.

I measure at the mixing location assuming you are not mixing on stage, otherwise somewhere out in the room in a central location.
it will always be louder in the near field.

Lot's of clubs will complain if you are so loud that the waitresses cannot hear orders.
I get that.
 
#3
Noise Exposure - Permissible Levels and Duration

Decide what level you and your band mates are comfortable with (and willing to accept the consequences of).

You can have a low level stage and let the PA carry your sound. You could all have some sort of personal mix system (Aviom?) and let each band member choose his/her own level.

...or you can go all punk-core and play @ 140 dB... and then stuff your ears with cotton balls... :rollno: (Don't laugh... we were all young once.)

That's half the equation... the audience counts too. In my personal case I don't stay were the noise level goes past 90db (and that includes houses of worship, even if Moses himself comes down to deliver the message).

My $0.02.

Edited to add: I measure with my iPhone, but I have a dedicated sound meter as well. For a lot of people (that I talk to on this topic anyway) this doesn't seem to be very important, so I measure where I'm at (my location). If it goes above my personal threshold during rehearsal or a worship service, I turn down the gig (music is a hobby for me). I get invited back to sub (have been offered the bass chair at two churches), but I made a commitment that I'm not going to go past my threshold. I already lost enough hearing, I wear hearing aids and other assisting devices, and at $6k a pair (of hearing aids) I don't plan on being negligent in that (noise level) area, thank you very much.
 
#4
We use a chepo radio-shack decibel meter. IMO/IME, If you are background music in a bistro or restaurant then 80-85 max @ center of the room. If you are the entertainment for a small bar/pub (say 50-75 people cap) then 85-90 max @ center room. Reg size bar/lounge (100-150 peeps) 90-100 decibels @ center room. Not carved in stone, just a guideline.
 
#7
Actually, you do not want to use A weighting as it has significant roll -off below 1000 Hz.
It will give you falsely low readings.

See the graphs:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A-weighting


C weighting is what you use for live sound.
It is the standard as is most closely approximates the human ear response to sound and is what everyone else is using unless they didn't bother to read first.

All decent solutions, yes, even the I-Phone app, will average the signal for you.

Just select "averaging"
 
#10
PrietoBass said:
Noise Exposure - Permissible Levels and Duration

Decide what level you and your band mates are comfortable with (and willing to accept the consequences of).

You can have a low level stage and let the PA carry your sound. You could all have some sort of personal mix system (Aviom?) and let each band member choose his/her own level.

...or you can go all punk-core and play @ 140 dB... and then stuff your ears with cotton balls... :rollno: (Don't laugh... we were all young once.)

That's half the equation... the audience counts too. In my personal case I don't stay were the noise level goes past 90db (and that includes houses of worship, even if Moses himself comes down to deliver the message).

My $0.02.

Edited to add: I measure with my iPhone, but I have a dedicated sound meter as well. For a lot of people (that I talk to on this topic anyway) this doesn't seem to be very important, so I measure where I'm at (my location). If it goes above my personal threshold during rehearsal or a worship service, I turn down the gig (music is a hobby for me). I get invited back to sub (have been offered the bass chair at two churches), but I made a commitment that I'm not going to go past my threshold. I already lost enough hearing, I wear hearing aids and other assisting devices, and at $6k a pair (of hearing aids) I don't plan on being negligent in that (noise level) area, thank you very much.
Click to expand...

90? A church congregation clapping can be 92dB all by itself. The unamplified drum kit (with a shield) can hit 96dB easy if the drummer doesn't keep solid control.

When I mix I average about 94dB with peaks at 96/97. I don't get complaints even from the older congregation members.

Of course, the worship service is only 30 minutes long. And the speaking portion is much lower than 94dB.

I use A weighting, by the way. I know you're only supposed to use A weighting for very low volume levels (Yamaha Sound Reinforcement Handbook uses 40dB as an example...) But we've just always measured that way.
 
#11
KingRazor said:
90? A church congregation clapping can be 92dB all by itself. The unamplified drum kit (with a shield) can hit 96dB easy if the drummer doesn't keep solid control.

When I mix I average about 94dB with peaks at 96/97. I don't get complaints even from the older congregation members.

Of course, the worship service is only 30 minutes long. And the speaking portion is much lower than 94dB.

I use A weighting, by the way. I know you're only supposed to use A weighting for very low volume levels (Yamaha Sound Reinforcement Handbook uses 40dB as an example...) But we've just always measured that way.
Click to expand...

Sorry, but I've been in places where the worship is consistently at 80 or so, and the preaching is less than that, about 70 something. And these are also large congregations, so it's not about the size of the place necessarily.

Not saying your congregation is a bad place, but I wouldn't stay there. How loud is a CHOICE, not something that just cannot be avoided.
 
#13
ric stave said:
I was looking at dB meter apps for my iPhone, and haven't picked one yet because most of the reveiws say that each is as bad as the rest - any recommendations on a good one?
Click to expand...

Ric, I use SPL Meter and find it to be decent. At least the readings are close to what an SPL-8810 (American Recorder Technologies, bought at GC) gives me.

You may need to calibrate it if you suspect it is a little (way?) off.
 
#15
PrietoBass said:
Sorry, but I've been in places where the worship is consistently at 80 or so, and the preaching is less than that, about 70 something. And these are also large congregations, so it's not about the size of the place necessarily.

Not saying your congregation is a bad place, but I wouldn't stay there. How loud is a CHOICE, not something that just cannot be avoided.
Click to expand...

70 sounds about right for a speaking portion, but music at 80? That's very quiet. I think your numbers are a bit skewed. You could easily have a conversation with someone with 80dB music going on. 80dB is quieter than a movie theater. Do you never go to the movies?

And the measurements I take are at A weighting, so I imagine if I took C weighted measurements my mixes would be around 100dB. Once again, no ringing ears. No old people complaining it's too loud (and we have a decent number of them). Just good, full sound.
 
#16
One thing to remember is that meters don't measure only the music. They measure the total sound in the room, which can be an extra 10-15 db with an enthusiastic congregation singing along.

And meters can only tell you so much. Sometimes 80 sounds loud, sometimes 100 seems quiet. Depends on the surroundings and the tone of the music.
 
#17
KingRazor said:
70 sounds about right for a speaking portion, but music at 80? That's very quiet. I think your numbers are a bit skewed. You could easily have a conversation with someone with 80dB music going on. 80dB is quieter than a movie theater. Do you never go to the movies?

And the measurements I take are at A weighting, so I imagine if I took C weighted measurements my mixes would be around 100dB. Once again, no ringing ears. No old people complaining it's too loud (and we have a decent number of them). Just good, full sound.
Click to expand...

My numbers are accurate. One example I can give is when I attended my sons' HS graduation at Pensacola Christian College, two tears apart. On both ocassions the meter hardly ever reached 90. I measured it both times, A weighing. My youngest graduated this past May, and the auditorium was packed (both levels; this is a big auditorium). Full orchestra too. Obviously, that's how they wanted it and they knew what they were doing. I had no problem at all hearing everything; it was a very pleasant experience.

My kids go to a church that is mostly CCM worship. Every now and then they (the youth) want to go to some concert... the last one they had bands like Skillet and others. They tell me that they and their friends spent most of the time covering their ears... that's how loud it was. It's not surprising that back at their church they hit 100-105 and it's nothing.

Back in Denver they went to some "acquire the fire" event. Yea, they came back on fire alright, talking loud. They told me it was the same experience.

Here are a couple of links that you might find helpful:

http://www.churchsoundcheck.com/hlitl.html

http://www.ccli.com/WorshipCorner/Article.aspx?ContentId=10311875-b2b4-4350-9f07-7fdeca808786

Every church is different. You folks have it the way you like it, and that's alright. I just wouldn't be a fit in that environment; I'm one of the old hearing-impaired guys that is just overly sensitive to high sound levels.
 
#18
PrietoBass said:
My numbers are accurate. One example I can give is when I attended my sons' HS graduation at Pensacola Christian College, two tears apart. On both ocassions the meter hardly ever reached 90. I measured it both times, A weighing. My youngest graduated this past May, and the auditorium was packed (both levels; this is a big auditorium). Full orchestra too. Obviously, that's how they wanted it and they knew what they were doing. I had no problem at all hearing everything; it was a very pleasant experience.

My kids go to a church that is mostly CCM worship. Every now and then they (the youth) want to go to some concert... the last one they had bands like Skillet and others. They tell me that they and their friends spent most of the time covering their ears... that's how loud it was. It's not surprising that back at their church they hit 100-105 and it's nothing.

Back in Denver they went to some "acquire the fire" event. Yea, they came back on fire alright, talking loud. They told me it was the same experience.

Here are a couple of links that you might find helpful:

http://www.churchsoundcheck.com/hlitl.html

http://www.ccli.com/WorshipCorner/Article.aspx?ContentId=10311875-b2b4-4350-9f07-7fdeca808786

Every church is different. You folks have it the way you like it, and that's alright. I just wouldn't be a fit in that environment; I'm one of the old hearing-impaired guys that is just overly sensitive to high sound levels.
Click to expand...

Wow. Well, I'm really sorry about what's happened to your ears. :(

I'd hate to be that sensitive to volume, no way I'd be able to mix without ear plugs.
 
#19
KingRazor said:
Wow. Well, I'm really sorry about what's happened to your ears. :(

I'd hate to be that sensitive to volume, no way I'd be able to mix without ear plugs.
Click to expand...

I've come to accept it. I try to be informed and to pass on my experience to others.

What's happened to my ears is that, when I was young and immortal, people would tell me the same thing I'm saying here, but I wouldn't listen. I never missed a service; always front row and center if you will. And those LOUD LOUD services? They were glorious! Except I'm one of those lucky ones whose lost over 50% hearing, on both ears because of exposure to high sound levels, mostly in those services.

It's not just you mixing... it's your audience as well, even those that don't complain but do not know better and will be like me tomorrow... like little children.

My opinion is (my opinion alone) there's no need for unnecessary loudness. That's why I set my own limit, and I kid you not, I have walked away many times because of the noise. This is my personal conviction; I need to be a good steward with what I've been entrusted, my health included.

Nice chattin' with you.
 

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