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Deep shimming

A

-Asdfgh-

Apr 13, 2010
15,347
27,563
UK
#1
I have a parts jazz, Warmoth neck, unknown body. It plays well enough, but only if I crank the saddles right down. If I shim enough to get the saddle screws actually within the saddles either I get a ski jump effect on the higher frets, or the notes choke out on the first fret. The only other option I can think of is sticking a circa 2mm flat shim under the entire neck. Are there any likely gotchas on this?

I'm considering using plastic card in black (least visible colour) to do this, as it is easy to work with, but I am not averse to getting some think sheet of a suitable wood and colouring it to match. Pine would be easiest to work with and easy to source in the local hardware store, but I am guessing something like maple would be a more durable choice. I suppose I could also use metal, although I don't have a spare neck plate just for under-sized testing purposes.

Sustain seems OK, so I could get short screws to stop them ripping up the edges of shirts, or my hands on the rare occasions I use a pick down the rusty end (i.e. twice a year).
 
#2
If you get a ski jump with a shim, you get a ski jump without a shim. A ski jump isn't contingent upon having a shim, but rather is the result of a faulty neck and do not come and go. I suspect you have way to much relief. So you really need to do a complete setup or you should take it to a pro. Here's a link to Fenders setup guide. Study and follow it. That should cure your problems.
https://www.talkbass.com/attachments/fender-bass-setup-guide-pdf.977560/
 
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#3
sissy kathy said:
If you get a ski jump with a shim, you get a ski jump without a shim. A ski jump isn't contingent upon having a shim, but rather is the result of a faulty neck and do not come and go. I suspect you have way to much relief. So you really need to do a complete setup or you should take it to a pro. Here's a link to Fenders setup guide. Study and follow it. That should cure your problems.
https://www.talkbass.com/attachments/fender-bass-setup-guide-pdf.977560/
Click to expand...

Relief is pretty minimal (lower thsn Fender standards ) and when not using a shim, upper register access is fine. The neck has recently been levelled and crowned. To get a neck angle sufficient to fix the low saddle issue requires quite a significant shim. I'll work out the angle a bit later

Edit: around 1.5 to 2 degrees (measurement inaccuracy)
 
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#4
As pointed out ski jumps don't come and go. It sounds like the problem is the neck angle. If the neck pocket is too deep for the neck but the angle is good then a flat shim is the answer. If the neck angle is the problem a shim to change the angle can help but a little does a lot. Since it is a parts bass it could be the bridge itself is to high for the neck/body combo.
 
#5
"The neck has recently been levelled and crowned" -did they know what they were doing?. a complete functional set-up after this work is required, yet apparently your bass is still a mess. what's the history on this?
 
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#6
Arie X said:
"The neck has recently been levelled and crowned" -did they know what they were doing?. a complete functional set-up after this work is required, yet apparently your bass is still a mess. what's the history on this?
Click to expand...

I crowned and levelled. All fine on the other three fretted and two fretless basses (latter two not crowned of course!) that I did. set up on the other basses is also fine. Two electric guitars also levelled and crowned too, with no issues. The Warmoth neck barely needed any levelling at all.
 
#7
RSBBass said:
As pointed out ski jumps don't come and go. It sounds like the problem is the neck angle. If the neck pocket is too deep for the neck but the angle is good then a flat shim is the answer. If the neck angle is the problem a shim to change the angle can help but a little does a lot. Since it is a parts bass it could be the bridge itself is to high for the neck/body combo.
Click to expand...

This is what I think is the issue - too deep a pocket for the neck. The symptom when I put enough back tilt on seems like a ski jump, but maybe it isn't, as it's just to much tilt to be workable. It's far more than I've ever put a non-flat shim in before, which is typically more like business-card thickness, or rather cereal packet thickness.
 
#8
ok. i assume you zeroed out the truss rod before your leveling?

neck angle and pocket depth are best checked with a 24" steel straight edge standing up on one of it's graduated edges. with the saddles bottomed out, lay the rule out on the fretboard and slide it over to the saddles. what do you see?

pix would help :)
 
#9
-Asdfgh- said:
I crowned and levelled. All fine on the other three fretted and two fretless basses (latter two not crowned of course!) that I did. set up on the other basses is also fine. Two electric guitars also levelled and crowned too, with no issues.
Click to expand...
Arie X said:
ok. i assume you zeroed out the truss rod before your leveling?
Click to expand...

Truss rod was adjusted to flatten the neck, using one of the Stewmac slotted rulers to test. Sanding was with a flat beam and appropriate paper. The beam might have been from Stewmac too, but I got it a while back.

I'm not sure what photo to take it what to show that would be useful.
 
#10
regarding pictures:

1) a picture of the relationship of the straight edge to the saddles. this would show neck angle and an idea of pocket depth. if the straight edge is hitting the front edge of the saddles when they are bottomed out, there is an issue.

2) a picture of where the fingerboard edge lays compared to the body at the neck pocket. this would also give an idea of pocket depth. for example: if the fingerboard or marker dots are very near or below the top surface of the body, there is an issue.

since this bass is a bit of a parts bash, it could be a simple matter of elevating the neck in the pocket, or a matter of an angular shim (or both) -assuming of course the neck geometry is decent.
 
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#11
Arie X said:
regarding pictures:

1) a picture of the relationship of the straight edge to the saddles. this would show neck angle and an idea of pocket depth. if the straight edge is hitting the front edge of the saddles when they are bottomed out, there is an issue.

2) a picture of where the fingerboard edge lays compared to the body at the neck pocket. this would also give an idea of pocket depth. for example: if the fingerboard or marker dots are very near or below the top surface of the body, there is an issue.

since this bass is a bit of a parts bash, it could be a simple matter of elevating the neck in the pocket, or a matter of an angular shim (or both) -assuming of course the neck geometry is decent.
Click to expand...

I'll see what I can do after dinner.

This bass is my bonus bass made from parts left over from other projects.
 
#12
-Asdfgh- said:
Truss rod was adjusted to flatten the neck, using one of the Stewmac slotted rulers to test. Sanding was with a flat beam and appropriate paper. The beam might have been from Stewmac too, but I got it a while back.

I'm not sure what photo to take it what to show that would be useful.
Click to expand...

Last line was partially a product of auto "correct"
 
#13
Arie X said:
regarding pictures:

1) a picture of the relationship of the straight edge to the saddles. this would show neck angle and an idea of pocket depth. if the straight edge is hitting the front edge of the saddles when they are bottomed out, there is an issue.

2) a picture of where the fingerboard edge lays compared to the body at the neck pocket. this would also give an idea of pocket depth. for example: if the fingerboard or marker dots are very near or below the top surface of the body, there is an issue.

since this bass is a bit of a parts bash, it could be a simple matter of elevating the neck in the pocket, or a matter of an angular shim (or both) -assuming of course the neck geometry is decent.
Click to expand...

As far as I can tell the geometry is fine, if a little chunkier than I'd like. To be fair, with the truss rod adjusted pretty straight the circa 1.5 degree shim very nearly works, but the first fret starts to choke out. With more relief (1/8 turn), then that's fine, but it chokes out above about 15th fret, with a sub 2mm 12th fret action with .100 to .40 strings. With the same relief and no shim it's fine over the whole neck, but the E and G saddles have to be on the deck.
 
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#15
Did you say Cornflakes?

Kellogg's Corn Flakes® Crunchy Hash Brown Casserole
INGREDIENTS
  • 2 cans (10 3/4 oz. each) condensed, reduced-fat cream of chicken soup
  • 3 cups (12 oz.) shredded sharp cheddar cheese
  • 1 cup sour cream or reduced-fat sour cream
  • 1 bag (32 oz.) frozen diced hash brown potatoes (about 7 1/3 cups)
  • 2 1/2 cups Kellogg’s Corn Flakes® cereal
DIRECTIONS
1. In large bowl combine soup, cheese and sour cream. Stir in potatoes. Spread in 13 x 9 x 2-inch baking dish coated with cooking spray. Bake, uncovered, at 350° F for 1 hour.

2. Stir potato mixture. Sprinkle with KELLOGG’S CORN FLAKES cereal. Bake, uncovered, at 350° F for 15 to 20 minutes more or until potatoes are tender.
 
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#16
The ready supply of card is a cornflakes box or a Yorkshire Gold box, and Yorkshire tea is a bit too sacrosanct. I tidied away so thick card from a hosepipe set on Sunday that would have been better for this test

Can you tell I spent half my life in t'Yorkshire?
 
#18
Pilgrim said:
For a flat shim that's easy to work with, an old store credit card/gift card seems like a really good option. Not compressible, easy to trim, very consistent in thickness, and you can color the edges black with a Sharpie to make it hard to see.
Click to expand...

I get sent a lot of "A N Other" fake cards, which I mostly use as glue spreaders, but could use one of those
 
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