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demo work for producers question

B

bassybass

Mar 29, 2008
111
0
#1
Hi JMJ,
I figured I'd ask this here of you--if it's just one of those "hard to say", "to many variables" kinda things then I understand:

I contacted a producer--a pretty big guy in the RnB world(multiple Grammys, etc.) and proposed I track some bass for him. I got his interest it seems, which is good. I said I'd do some tracks on spec to see if he likes what I do. He appreciates that, but wants to know if he uses a track I did spec (this is for demos he's working up on his own to try and place with artists--not album work, or actual label-budgeted demos) what will I charge? Now, the only other producers I've tracked for like that are broke indie guys, for like 100 bucks a song kinda thing. (This is me tracking in my own little studio, remote).
Is there an acceptable range I can keep in mind when coming up with a price? I'm an unknown, and just want to get my foot in the door. Any thoughts appreciated--thanks!
 
#2
If the demo arrives somewhere, like on a record, get 400-500 for your work, per song. If it's still a demo thing and stays that way, at least get $150-$200 a song. I dunno, those numbers are arbitrary. I still do demo stuff if it's really cool and I have time, and sometimes I'll just do it for free if I think it'll go somewhere.

I hope that helps at all.
 
#3
at what point do you talk about the money?? Upfront I assume?? How does it usually go down? Like, "I'll do the demo for $150, but if it makes it to the album, then I need another $500?" Is there a contract before any music is played? Just curious from another "unknowns" perspective? As I'm some what leery of producer types.
thanks for any insight Justin.

c
 
#4
No contract, but maybe having it in an email. Just casual, relaxed discussion. Have a lot of confidence during the chat, but do it in a very relaxed way. Look people in the eye. Don't stutter.

"Sure, we can do the demo for $150...do you have something in mind for if it makes the record?"..."Hmm, I don't know...what are you thinking?"..."Well, maybe just a standard rate, like $500 a song, so another $400. How does that seem?"...."Seems cool!".

I've only been stiffed once or twice, and that was in very sub-par hip hop circumstances.

Best,
JMJ
 
#5
Thanks! Very helpful info indeed.
I guess this is a whole 'nuther thread in a way, but this kind of scenario is all non-union type of stuff I just assume (I am in the AFM, but the only union sessions I've ever done are a couple of tv spots and one union demo session for a major label---that one paid pretty good. I just lucked into those through friends, so I'm still pretty green about it).
Does it ever happen that, you play on a demo like we're talking, it ends up on an album, let's say a major label, and it becomes AFM-applicable(the playing you did) and subject to those terms? Or, would it only work if a union contract for the recording was in place to begin with? Seems like so much is non-union these days, but the major stuff HAS to be, no?
 
#6
jmjbassplayer said:
No contract, but maybe having it in an email. Just casual, relaxed discussion. Have a lot of confidence during the chat, but do it in a very relaxed way. Look people in the eye. Don't stutter.

"Sure, we can do the demo for $150...do you have something in mind for if it makes the record?"..."Hmm, I don't know...what are you thinking?"..."Well, maybe just a standard rate, like $500 a song, so another $400. How does that seem?"...."Seems cool!".

I've only been stiffed once or twice, and that was in very sub-par hip hop circumstances.

Best,
JMJ
Click to expand...
That sucks to get stiffed, but in those circumstances, it probably isn't a good idea to go after the money vigorously.
 
#7
bassybass said:
Thanks! Very helpful info indeed.
I guess this is a whole 'nuther thread in a way, but this kind of scenario is all non-union type of stuff I just assume (I am in the AFM, but the only union sessions I've ever done are a couple of tv spots and one union demo session for a major label---that one paid pretty good. I just lucked into those through friends, so I'm still pretty green about it).
Does it ever happen that, you play on a demo like we're talking, it ends up on an album, let's say a major label, and it becomes AFM-applicable(the playing you did) and subject to those terms? Or, would it only work if a union contract for the recording was in place to begin with? Seems like so much is non-union these days, but the major stuff HAS to be, no?
Click to expand...

Yes, it does happen that way. Sometimes a non-Union thing becomes Union just by nature of a major label having to release it, therefore becoming responsible for pension fund contributions, health and welfare, phonograph record special payment funds (kind of like residuals, etc). In other words, someone after the fact can generate a contract and put the former session info and players right on there.

The major stuff does have to be, yes.

And I've become a bit of a Union advocate; if an employer asks whether or not I want to be paid through the Union, I don't even hesitate. Mainly because the annual checks you get every year from film and phonograph recording can both be pretty sizable.

Best,
JMJ
 
#9
This is a great thread. I find my self in these questionable situations (fortunately or unfortunately?) several times a week! So much stuff is done under the radar of the union that sometimes I wonder why I pay dues...although I know provided the right gig, it will be more than worth it.

How do you keep track of whats happening with your demo work? I'm frankly overwhelmed and not always aware of whats going on with it. I just did a gospel session, got paid what I consider a demo rate, but when/if it comes out on a major label...what do I do? I have already "been paid for my work." Just not sure what to do when/if some the demo work I've done moves to another level.

Also, television recording is kind of confusing to me. I recently did a theme song for a new show on VH1. It was a last minute call..."get in a cab now...so-and-so flaked," kind of thing. It was super rushed and then after the session when I asked about payment I was just told it was non-union, check is in the mail...Not sure what to think...good? bad? normal?

Does anyone have any experience with television theme songs, especially reality TV?
 
#10
brianh said:
Also, television recording is kind of confusing to me. I recently did a theme song for a new show on VH1. It was a last minute call..."get in a cab now...so-and-so flaked," kind of thing. It was super rushed and then after the session when I asked about payment I was just told it was non-union, check is in the mail...Not sure what to think...good? bad? normal?

Does anyone have any experience with television theme songs, especially reality TV?
Click to expand...

With TV, it SHOULD be union, but alas, these days, we're seeing all manner of scenarios, with reality TV in particular. With budgets being what they are (and after all reality TV exists as we know it in large part because the creators/producers don't want to have pay anybody any more than absolutely necessary), everybody is nickle and diming composers and players so much, the landscape has really changed. With a regular network show it should be done all on the up and up, standard issue kind of affair, union, etc. With reality shows, anything goes it seems.
I just scored a couple reality show theme songs--played everything on them. Buyout, non-union. On one I get my typical writer's back end, but on the other, the only way I coulda gotten it was to agree to a total buyout, or they were just gonna slap some crap stock track in there that didn't even fit that well. I need the dough, so c'est la vie.
So, long story short, to answer your question, it's bad, but more and more normal unfortunately. What's good is they actually called you in instead of just firing up Trilogy and slapping in a virtual bass part;)
 
#11
This has got me thinking about a few things. So much of what I do is non-union so it's feels complicated. Would it make sense to have different rates for different types of work?

i.e.

-low budget studio work for singer-songwriter types
-demo work that is being shopped for records or commercials
-television work (theme songs/commercials)
-album work for major label

Right now I'm not doing any major label stuff but I'm living on the other stuff. Obviously situations and budgets differ...but how do you handel business in these situations?
 
#12
brianh said:
This has got me thinking about a few things. So much of what I do is non-union so it's feels complicated. Would it make sense to have different rates for different types of work?

i.e.

-low budget studio work for singer-songwriter types
-demo work that is being shopped for records or commercials
-television work (theme songs/commercials)
-album work for major label

Right now I'm not doing any major label stuff but I'm living on the other stuff. Obviously situations and budgets differ...but how do you handel business in these situations?
Click to expand...

I would certainly think those rates would all be different, most notably the album work for a major label and TV work. Those seem to be in a different category altogether than the former two.

As far as how I handle it, I tend to just give people a quote based on a day rate for everything, and I pro-rate that according to how much time is used. So that's one way to do it. But demos, I'll keep it mellow for people, though I rarely seem to have time these days to do much of those anyway.

JMJ
 

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