Demystifying Metal styles, how to make fingerstyle playing heard in Metal

[mutedeity]

I don't know. Why bother trying to explain to those that dismiss any type of music why it is valid. If people have to use the old "it's just noise to me" line, I just put them in the "people that I don't bother taking at all seriously on any topic involving music" catergory. People threw cabbages at Stravinsky the first time he had "Rite of Spring" performed because it was just noise, too.

 

[Phantopeth]

um... asparagus.

erroneous spleen. Flaming dyslexic isotopes of love. monkey hip dysplasia. Ambiguous federal budgetary weenie roast. Laundry detergent. phytoplankton. Meiosis. hyper-radioactive burrowing photon emiters.

What is this from? The last one in particular sounds like it's something out of either a Calvin & Hobbes strip, or Mike Gordon's mouth.

 

[Lorenzini]

says the person who is obviously bias to the genre.
how can you speak with such authority when you obviously haven't taken the time to learn about the genre in depth?

it's like someone saying "jazz is just about playing walking lines with crazy chords and doing heroin and having a raspy voice"
we know that there is more to it than that.

to try and sum up a genre of music in such simple ways is ignorant and reflects badly of any musicians personality.

I guess I just have a disagreement with the comparison of whole genre based on violence and general bad-moodiness, to a genre such as jazz, and I'm not talking Clear Channel "smooth" jazz which doesn't take much technique at all.

As far as theory, harmony, musicality and communication for the sake of art there is no comparison and that's why I take offense when someone compares something like Death Metal to Jazz.

I will not deny that Death Metal takes some serious technique to play though, and will acknowledge the OP in trying to shed light on how the stuff is played. Good luck to all!

 

[MaskedJackal]

What a well thought-out thread. Great, informative reading here...kudos!

People who think death metal is only about death need to buy Cynic's Focus album and Atheist's Unquestionable Presence album to see how interesting a band sounds with jazz influences.

 

[Human Bass]

What i find lame is the prejudice towards pick, i dont even play with pick, because im damn clumsy, but there is nothing wrong with it. And the prejudice seems to get a bit worse when it comes to very fast metal, like "yo, you cant use your ring finger to play super fast like Felipe Andreoli or Alex Webster, you suck".
One of my favourite tones ever was done with a pick, Mike Inez on AIC unplugged.

I know that 3 fingers look virtuoso and badass, and pick looks "punkish", but its music, its not about looks, but sound, so play the way it sounds good.

 

[El-Bob]

i think people should stop comparing playing styles and genres in this thread, it started out with some of the best advice I've ever heard for fingerstyle metal, and i think we would all benefit more if we stopped arguing about picks and jazz. i personally have nothing against picks or jazz, but those really aren't the point of this thread...well, i'm off to work.

 

[Willem]

This is a great thread! Pablo you should look my profile at my influences! You're there!!
I'm not a death metal bassist, but a speed/thrash metal bassist and this was very helpful. I just bought an amp with a 12 band graphic and you gave me some pointers in how to EQ. I'm gonna try them out this weekend at our gigs! I've also started to build up my three finger speed cause I'll need that for some parts... I'm trying to be a in the pocket player most of the time. But in metal that means playing stupid fast sometimes. I actually just decided to play fingerstyle only as opposed to 90% pick and some fingerstyle here and there. But my bass is definitly set up wrong. Next time I restring I get a lighter gauge strings (.125 .95 .80 .60 for Bb Eb Ab Db), and I'm gonna try do do a setup myself. I need to find the right screw to lower the action. Thanks for this great post!

ps big +1 to the post above!

 

[Geezerman]

If you think jazz and players such as Patittuci are just about speed, you're so wrong.

It's about what notes you play. It's about the feel and dynamics and musicianship you display, while communicating to an audience.

Deathmetal is ... not about those things. It's more about death and moshing and ridiculous lyrics.

I would describe it as an invisible darkness
casting a shadow, a blinding black
guarded by hope, my soul is kept from
the bloody claws.

Look beyond, what vision lets me see
time after time, unneeded misery
holding tight to my dreams
I own no price for you
I grip them tight and hope for sight.

Open my eyes wide to see a moment of clarity
confusion gone, it's in your hands
your turn to ask why.

Life is like a mystery
with many clues, but with few anwers
to tell us what it is that we can do to look
for messages that keep us from the truth

 

[Gawd]

I guess I just have a disagreement with the comparison of whole genre based on violence and general bad-moodiness, to a genre such as jazz, and I'm not talking Clear Channel "smooth" jazz which doesn't take much technique at all.

As far as theory, harmony, musicality and communication for the sake of art there is no comparison and that's why I take offense when someone compares something like Death Metal to Jazz.

I will not deny that Death Metal takes some serious technique to play though, and will acknowledge the OP in trying to shed light on how the stuff is played. Good luck to all!

if you think that any entire genre is full of cookie cutter music that all follows the same formula than you're mistaken.

Check out Between The Buried And Me, none of their songs have ridiculous lyrics about death, they also don't have long hair, and don't dress in all black, or really fall into any metal stereotype, they have great compositions, and are also able to switch from being incredibly heavy to very soft and melodic in a flash. definately my favourite metal band.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=KFze65yQhgY

 

[idoru]

um... asparagus.

erroneous spleen. Flaming dyslexic isotopes of love. monkey hip dysplasia. Ambiguous federal budgetary weenie roast. Laundry detergent. phytoplankton. Meiosis. hyper-radioactive burrowing photon emiters.

Oh, so you've got the new Mars Volta album then?

 

[Paul Dolle]

With metal I find that finger style works just fine and I am heard I mean I am trained with jazz, funk, and rock etc but I mean there is no rulebook on playing bass.

 

[mutedeity]

What i find lame is the prejudice towards pick, i dont even play with pick, because im damn clumsy, but there is nothing wrong with it. And the prejudice seems to get a bit worse when it comes to very fast metal, like "yo, you cant use your ring finger to play super fast like Felipe Andreoli or Alex Webster, you suck".
One of my favourite tones ever was done with a pick, Mike Inez on AIC unplugged.

I know that 3 fingers look virtuoso and badass, and pick looks "punkish", but its music, its not about looks, but sound, so play the way it sounds good.

You answered your own question. A pick sounds like a pick fingers sound like fingers. If you want a pick sound though, use a pick, I say.

 

[mutedeity]

i think people should stop comparing playing styles and genres in this thread, it started out with some of the best advice I've ever heard for fingerstyle metal, and i think we would all benefit more if we stopped arguing about picks and jazz. i personally have nothing against picks or jazz, but those really aren't the point of this thread...well, i'm off to work.

On the other hand technique is technique no matter what "genre" you use it in.

 

[Atshen]

Excellent post, Pablo! However, I have a few points to argue so you don't get away with it too easily!

Choosing to play fingerstyle as opposed to using a pick is a difficult choice when you're playing in these styles, as the speed and technicality is more easily accomplished with a plectrum...

I beg to differ. I can play much faster (which is still pretty slow by some others' standards!) with my fingers, and I pluck with only two fingers (my right ring ringer had an accident years ago). Maybe it's just me though. I've never been a great pick player, but I like the sound for some situations.

...however more and more people every day have come to feel that playing fingerstyle affords more expression, control and creates a natural, round fundamental that often is not present in pickstyle playing and must be EQ'ed in artificially.

"Often" being the keyword here. Some pickstyle players have a great, full tone.

I cant express enough how much you damage your intelligibility when playing in a band by setting your tone an EQ controls while playing SOLO.... set your tine controls while your bandmates are playing!!

Exactly! So many bass players in every genre commit that mistake. Leave your darn mids alone! Personally, I even boost the mids most of the time. I came to enjoy that tone soloed as well.

Okay, now a few questions.

When talking about three-finger plucking, in what order should the fingers go? Steve Digiorgio once said in an interview that he does 1-2-3-2-1-2-3-2... instead of 1-2-3-1-2-3-1-2... to avoid that "galloping" sound.

Speaking of Digiorgio, when did he play with Overkill? I'm surprised because D.D. Verni was always one of the main songwriters in the band and his style and tone are totally different from Steve's... In other words, it wouldn't be Overkill without D.D.

Doesn't Steve Harris usually plays more towards the bridge? Also, he uses pretty heavy strings and tunes standard.

Just one more point to nitpick. I don't understand your user title, "Mediocre Jazz bassists make AMAZING metal bassists". I thought a mediocre jazz bassist would make an average country bassist at best...

Thanks again for the great post!

P.S.: This thread should be a sticky.

 

[Willem]

Pablo, you should make a new account now.... you got 666 posts at this moment

 

[El-Bob]

P.S.: This thread should be a sticky.

+1000000000, as i have said before it is the best thread ever and, as far as i know it's the only HELPFUL thread on talkbass to deal with fingerstyle speed effectively.

 

[pablomigraine]

What i find lame is the prejudice towards pick, i donut even play with pick, because im damn clumsy, but there is nothing wrong with it. And the prejudice seems to get a bit worse when it comes to very fast metal, like "yo, you cant use your ring finger to play super fast like Felipe Andreoli or Alex Webster, you suck".
One of my favourite tones ever was done with a pick, Mike Inez on AIC unplugged.

I know that 3 fingers look virtuoso and badass, and pick looks "punkish", but its music, its not about looks, but sound, so play the way it sounds good.

I agree. IMHO, there has however been a really and audible loss in the lo-bass presence when switching from fingers to pick. I can play very well pickstyle when a producers asks me to..... but it just isnt MY sound...

........ there is no rulebook on playing bass.

+1

You answered your own question. A pick sounds like a pick fingers sound like fingers. If you want a pick sound though, use a pick, I say.

+1

Pablo, you should make a new account now.... you got 666 posts at this moment

No way!!!

+1000000000, as i have said before it is the best thread ever and, as far as i know it's the only HELPFUL thread on talkbass to deal with fingerstyle speed effectively.

Thanks alot man. Its good to know I was of some help.

Excellent post, Pablo! However, I have a few points to argue so you don't get away with it too easily!

"Often" being the keyword here. Some pickstyle players have a great, full tone.

As I said above, for me there has always been, no matter what gear I was using, a dropout in the natural low end when using a pick. Sure you can make it sound great, but my point was, that natural low end often has to be EQ'ed back in when using a pick. Thats just IMHO....


Exactly! So many bass players in every genre commit that mistake. Leave your darn mids alone! Personally, I even boost the mids most of the time. I came to enjoy that tone soloed as well.
This is the single worst mistake a metal player can maker. Always check your tone WITH your bandmates!!

Okay, now a few questions.

When talking about three-finger plucking, in what order should the fingers go? Steve Digiorgio once said in an interview that he does 1-2-3-2-1-2-3-2... instead of 1-2-3-1-2-3-1-2... to avoid that "galloping" sound.

This one is all about personal preference............

Speaking of Digiorgio, when did he play with Overkill?

This was an error on my part, he played for TESTAMENT...

Just one more point to nitpick. I don't understand your user title, "Mediocre Jazz bassists make AMAZING metal bassists". I thought a mediocre jazz bassist would make an average country bassist at best...

This just goes along with my philosophy that jazz training will be of tremendous help to you in any Genre of music, and metal is a genre where often, not much is required or expected of you as a bass player, so when a Jazz trained bassist shows up for the metal gig, the rest of the band is often wowed because they're use to the stupid-simple root / 5 guy who never did anything exciting, because that was all he needed to do to get by.... thus I get an artificial ego boost by playing in metal band where my skills are considered exemplary, where in improv or contemporary Jazz, I'd be just average......

Thanks again for the great post!

P.S.: This thread should be a sticky.

I think you have to PM a moderator, thanks alot tho!!!

Thanks again!!


Hey Lorenzini!! PM me your email address. I'd like to send you a track or two to review, see what you have to say after an attentive listen........I'm willing to be I can change your mind about everything you've said completely in under 20 minutes of attentive, open minded listening....

 

[Pacman]

Someone suggested I "sticky" this.


Done.

 

[El-Bob]

Someone suggested I "sticky" this.


Done.

thank you kindly

 

[stabbicus]

Sticky status in less than a week. Nice job on the awesome post. Extremely helpful and insightful.