i have done this cos my Hiwatt does not have DI or Line Out... So i plug a cable from Speaker out to Countryman DI, and another cable from the DI to the cabinet... And that´s it.
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DI problems
- Thread starter tony_clifton
- Start date
i have done this cos my Hiwatt does not have DI or Line Out... So i plug a cable from Speaker out to Countryman DI, and another cable from the DI to the cabinet... And that´s it.
- Feb 12, 2006
- 60,961
- 5
- 220,635
- Disclosures
- Development Engineer-Mesa Boogie, Development Engineer-Genzler (pedals), Product Support-Genz Benz
On the other hand, if the console is a $25K one, or even more than, oh, say $5K... I'll bet it'll have appropriate padding capabilities, or the soundtech will have a pad or DI w/pad......
I'll still stick to:
You are completely missing the point here... it has nothing to do with the pad function or feature, what it does have to do with is the sleeve ("ground") terminal of the speaker not being at ground but being driven from or at power supply rail potential. So, when this output is connected through a standard DI of any type, this voltage (which may be as high as 130 volts) is connected directly to the console ground through pin 1 and causes a very large current to flow. When it does, depending on the construdtion topology of the particular console, overloads the entire grounding network of traces and wired back to the console's main safety ground. This overloading often burns up PCBs and small bus harnesses. Doesn't matter what the console is, if the ground path is present, the damage is possible.
(note thatthere are a few consoles that are immune to this due to the particular ground structure at the input plane but then the next point of failure is the shield drain wire in the snake on that channel. I've seen a couple burned open during the years and usually, the heat damages more than just that channel, it melts the insulation of adjacent pairs inside the snake.
- Feb 12, 2006
- 60,961
- 5
- 220,635
- Disclosures
- Development Engineer-Mesa Boogie, Development Engineer-Genzler (pedals), Product Support-Genz Benz
Note that paralleling a speaker level signal through the Countryman DI is not a good idea, the parallel path is intended only for the line level operation. The parallel jumper wire is 24 or 26 gauge, easy enough to burn open with a large amp. Seen a few of these too.
what do you mean? do you mean sticking something else in the line between the speaker and cab besides the countryman?
Thanks for posting this. I'm still not sure I understand it, but I'll err on the side of never trying it (I just knew it was possible having read the literature that came with my di's). In light of all of this, I'm suprised that Countryman and JDI suggest this mode of operation without a warning.
I think he means it's bad to run all of the current through the countryman (i.e., amp to countryman to cabinet), rather than putting the countryman "at the end of the line" (i.e. amp to cabinet to countryman).
please tell me you're not saying this isn't good to do even for tube amps! have i been playing with fire?
Which one? If it's the "where in the line does the Countryman go" issue, you may be doing so (although Countryman's on-line literature suggests this set-up for guitar--maybe that's ok because guitars typically don't use the power we do).
Maybe it would be a good idea to have a competent amp tech change the output of the DI, pad it down internally. I had this done on a Ultrasound Acoustic amp. Shouldn't cost much. Fussing with external pads will work, (better for the studio environment IMO) but it's just extra a cable connection to make at a gig.
I hope not.....I use an old Magnatone tube amp (true vibrato!) direct that way sometimes. I had a tech wire the xtra speaker output as direct out. So far, so good!
well it hasn't hurt any pa's i've used and i've used it countless times that way. but it only takes one...
No, no, I think he's claiming that the Countryman is at risk if it's between the amp and cabinet--the notion being that the wires connecting the two 1/4 inch jacks on the face of the Countryman are undersized for full-power operation. The wire between the jack and the di section are ok (the di draws very little current).
No, I'm sorry, you're missing my point - I was not saying it is OK to use a DI on the speaker out because the console is more expensive, I was not talking about using that method at all - I was saying that if a soundtech has that much invested in quality equipment, he will most likely have a few low dollar 'problem solvers' (pads, etc....) and be able to take care of the high output situation, through experience and knowledge.
And as much as people on here like to throw EVERY solution out to the person who asks, sometimes the simplest one is all that is required - if his DI output is too hot (compared to other amp DI's that most soundmen run into) it would be worth his while and to save everyone's headache to pick up a few pads to put inline, just in case the soundguy he runs into next time doesn't have any spare gear or solutions. I never mentioned using the DI/Speaker level solution - I do understand that without knowing how it is wired, it could cause more problems than it's worth. And the thing is, the more experienced tech with the better equipment and more knowledge would probably know to NOT do something like that without really checking it out, whereas the less experienced 'tech' who doesn't have the experience may just take the line offered and unwittingly destroy his gear.
OK, I have a question. I've been following this thread and the opening post still has a problem for me. The OP said,
"The recording was unacceptably distorted, even though the input level was only 2%..."
and later
"..1. DI the bass
I don't like this one. My amp is not clean at all..."
He's not over driving the recorder's input? He said the level was only 2%. Then he goes on to say the amp is "not clean"
Is it possible that the distortion is not a result of the DI's output level but the gain settings in the preamp? In other words, clean up the signal in the amp.. run it clean then double check the DI. I'm thinking what he's hearing is that nasty direct tone like guitar players experience when DI'ing their amps.
IF (if) that's the case, I'd be micing the cabinet so quick it'd make your head spin.
Maybe I'm totally misunderstanding the issue.. ??
"The recording was unacceptably distorted, even though the input level was only 2%..."
and later
"..1. DI the bass
I don't like this one. My amp is not clean at all..."
He's not over driving the recorder's input? He said the level was only 2%. Then he goes on to say the amp is "not clean"
Is it possible that the distortion is not a result of the DI's output level but the gain settings in the preamp? In other words, clean up the signal in the amp.. run it clean then double check the DI. I'm thinking what he's hearing is that nasty direct tone like guitar players experience when DI'ing their amps.
IF (if) that's the case, I'd be micing the cabinet so quick it'd make your head spin.
Maybe I'm totally misunderstanding the issue.. ??
I think you're fine with a speaker DI on a tube amp. I remember asking agedhorse and he said it was ok.
I could completely be missing the issue, but it sounds like the input signal with all the gain is making the DI out too hot, is that right? Is it possible to turn down gain and turn up the master on the amp? I understand the pushed sound your going for but if the PA is reaching much more audience than your amp is, I'd adjust your settings to get it right through the PA and not so much your stage amp. It might not be the sound your used to hearing on stage, but to the people in the audience you could be right on. Plus, you can take the PA signal and have it come through a monitor/wedge. I'm not familiar with that particular amp, but I would think my answer is a global one to amps with a Gain and a Master. If this doesn't apply to your issue, then totally ignore what I wrote and consider a VT bass pedal for a pushed sound you can control. Those are my thoughts. Good luck with the gig!
- Feb 12, 2006
- 60,961
- 5
- 220,635
- Disclosures
- Development Engineer-Mesa Boogie, Development Engineer-Genzler (pedals), Product Support-Genz Benz
COUNTRYMAN TYPE 85
This is fine for small amps up to maybe 100 watts, but definately NOT for large bass amps. I just checked one that I have here in the shop and the jumper wire between the input and amp out jack is 26 gauge... this needs to be much more substantial when dealing with something like 1200 watts into 2 ohms. That's 25 amps RMS or 35 amps peak. Enough to vaporize this wire, which I have seen.
This diagram also does not warn against using with bridged output amps of any type. Very, very few guitar amps are bridged, but today, I would bet 1/4 of all bass amps use a bridged (internally) configuration, it's a very real and potentially destructive combination.
Mic the cab.
I've heard this a few times I cannot figure out why amp makers would make a DI that has too strong an output. Isn't it likely that some mixer makers have cheaped out on less-used features, like a -20 dB pad? & isn't it far more likely that the person using the desk doesn't really know what they are doing?
I don't know, but that could be because the software is taking 2% of a signal that's distorted from the earlier input stages.
I've heard this a few times I cannot figure out why amp makers would make a DI that has too strong an output. Isn't it likely that some mixer makers have cheaped out on less-used features, like a -20 dB pad? & isn't it far more likely that the person using the desk doesn't really know what they are doing?
I don't know, but that could be because the software is taking 2% of a signal that's distorted from the earlier input stages.
