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DI problems

T

tony_clifton

Nov 14, 2009
240
1
#1
Hi!

With an important gig coming up I'm in kind of trouble - my amp is gonna have to go trough the PA and it's DI is useless.
I's a Orange Terror Bass. The DI is so hot it is said to clip every board you'll plug it into.

To test this I connected the DI with a XLR to mini-jack cable to my laptop (a macbook), and recorded something in Garageband. The recording was unacceptably distorted, even though the input level was only 2%.
To put things in perspective - I have recorded some songs the same way; by miking the room- SM57 microphone into macbook, input volume maxed out. And yeah, we are loud! (drumkit, 40 watts tube amp cranked).

Okay, now when I have to play with PA support I can do the following:

1. DI the bass
I don't like this one. My amp is not clean at all. I'm pretty sure i'll lose everything I like so much about my rig.

2. Use the built-in DI
Not an option because of it's output level. However - Shure has some DI attenuators listed on their website: one that can do -15/20/25 db, and another one that will attenuate by 50 db. If this is a good idea, then what kind of value do I need?

Are there other options?
I take it the soundguy wil veto against using a microphone, but the amp has got an effects loop, so maybe that's a third possiblity?

Hope someone can help me - the gig is some kind of contest and winning or being second will give us a ticked to play a 20.000 visitors festival.
 
#3
Can't talk to the soundman - the PA is done by a company and if I'd call to them I probably get a textbook answer...

More important; I want to be prepared and don't want to stress about my gear, so I'd like to understand what the options are.

What can they do with multiple DIs for example? DI the bass, the effects send, the DI itself?
 
#4
A 20dB pad will probably tame your output down enough - maybe find some to try out? I have a simple Rolls passive DI (well, a bunch of 'em) and they have 3 selectable pad settings on them - 50dB is most likely too much - most times when the acoustic guitar is 'dead', it's because the guitarist accidentally hit the pad to the -50 position... LOL!
 
#5
Okay, thanks!
But are you sure about 20db? The difference between line and microphone output is about 60 db I thought?

But you'll probably be right, PAs can take both, and if it's too hot -20db on a line level channel probably will suffice.

Are there any other options? I think I'll go for the attenuator no matter what, compact and lo-tech is always good for a last resort solution :).
 
#6
You could always pick up (2) 20dB pads, or a 20 and a 10 or 15, and if 20 isn't enough, use em both. With a quality mixing board, you should be all set - most pro boards have pads on each input anywho, so if they pad you and you bring a few options, you should be all set.
 
#9
Hi.

tony_clifton said:
Can't talk to the soundman - the PA is done by a company and if I'd call to them I probably get a textbook answer...

More important; I want to be prepared and don't want to stress about my gear, so I'd like to understand what the options are.

What can they do with multiple DIs for example? DI the bass, the effects send, the DI itself?
Click to expand...

Talk to the soundman, that's Your only option if you can't find a DI that can take the output of your amp in time for the gig. Will the soundperson let You use that without a prior notice, 90% pobability that they won't.

Sound persons aren't morons, but trust me, any requests in the middle of a BOTB set-up/soundcheck fall into deaf ears. You'll have much better luck contacting the company, giving (faxing, e-mailing, whatever) the FULL stage plot, and asking whether they're OK with it or not. If You (the whole band) does that in advance, you have an edge over your competition, if they're as scared to care about their sound as you guys seem to be.

If You aren't a national act, or at least a well established act, and you don't clear things up beforehand, the stage-hand will give You a DI to connect your bass into. End of discussion.

If You are polite and upfront with the sound company, chances are that you will sound better than your competition. Think about that.

Regards
Sam
 
#10
tony_clifton said:
Okay, now when I have to play with PA support I can do the following:

1. DI the bass
I don't like this one. My amp is not clean at all. I'm pretty sure i'll lose everything I like so much about my rig.

2. Use the built-in DI
Not an option because of it's output level. However - Shure has some DI attenuators listed on their website: one that can do -15/20/25 db, and another one that will attenuate by 50 db. If this is a good idea, then what kind of value do I need?

Are there other options?
Click to expand...

There is another option that I don't see mentioned. Several quality DI's (including the Countryman and Radial JDI) have internal pads that allow you to run them off a "speaker out" jack on your amp (i.e., parallel to your speaker).
 
#13
mbrain said:
There is another option that I don't see mentioned. Several quality DI's (including the Countryman and Radial JDI) have internal pads that allow you to run them off a "speaker out" jack on your amp (i.e., parallel to your speaker).
Click to expand...

This is what I'd do. You can just daisy-chain the DI right off your cab and send the signal to the board.
 
#14
interesting...never thought about that aspect of using a speaker di with solid state gear. makes sense, though. yeah, that's what i'd do, too. i do it a lot with tube heads and it's great.

you could also consider the idea of getting your distortion with a pedal and shooting all of that into a di then into your amp. but a speaker di would work very well, i think.
 
#15
I'd think that running the DI through the effects loop would be easier for the sound guys to deal with as far as noise floor issues go. I guess the Countryman DI has a speaker pad, though most of the sound engineers I've worked with have been wary of taking a live signal that way, especially if it's a multiple act event.
 
#16
MR PC said:
I'd think that running the DI through the effects loop would be easier for the sound guys to deal with as far as noise floor issues go. I guess the Countryman DI has a speaker pad, though most of the sound engineers I've worked with have been wary of taking a live signal that way, especially if it's a multiple act event.
Click to expand...
that's because they're scared little girls. i've done plenty of tests with my countryman, and it's no more noisy than a regular di.
 
#17
JimmyM said:
that's because they're scared little girls. i've done plenty of tests with my countryman, and it's no more noisy than a regular di.
Click to expand...

No, the reason is because some (becoming many) bass amps utilize bridged outputs (either conventional amps run in bridge mode or class D amps that are of a bridged power stage design) where "ground" is not ground but tied to the power supply rail (either directly in the case of class D or indirectly in the case of class AB/G/H) sending high current down the ground path into the console that was not designed for those currents. The damage to a console can be very expensive (and in some cases impossible) to repair. The problem occurs when pin 1 is connected to the sleeve on the DI's input, the normal configuration especially for phantom powered units. The only way to do this is with a passive transformer isolated unit with a pad and NO connection to pin 1.

My usual console costs $25k, no need for me to do something that I know carries a significant risk of damage, and would you as a bass player be willing to pony up a couple thousand dollars to repair internal ground fault damage to the sound guy's console. Generally, most players would not IME.
 
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#19
agedhorse said:
No, the reason is because some (becoming many) bass amps utilize bridged outputs (either conventional amps run in bridge mode or class D amps that are of a bridged power stage design) where "ground" is not ground but tied to the power supply rail (either directly in the case of class D or indirectly in the case of class AB/G/H) sending high current down the ground path into the console that was not designed for those currents. The damage to a console can be very expensive (and in some cases impossible) to repair. The problem occurs when pin 1 is connected to the sleeve on the DI's input, the normal configuration especially for phantom powered units. The only way to do this is with a passive transformer isolated unit with a pad and NO connection to pin 1.

My usual console costs $25k, no need for me to do something that I know carries a significant risk of damage, and would you as a bass player be willing to pony up a couple thousand dollars to repair internal ground fault damage to the sound guy's console. Generally, most players would not IME.
Click to expand...
no kidding?! never knew that, andy. not that i've ever done it with a bridgeable amp, but that is certainly a good reason to avoid it in this instance, since the terror is class d. thanks for the info, and i'm sure the op thanks you for preventing a horrible lawsuit that he doesn't need.
 
#20
On the other hand, if the console is a $25K one, or even more than, oh, say $5K... I'll bet it'll have appropriate padding capabilities, or the soundtech will have a pad or DI w/pad......

;)

I'll still stick to:

If your main problem is that the DI out on your amp is hotter than most others and you want to be able to tame it down, buy a couple inline pads - Shure, Whirlwind, etc. Get a short XLR, then put the pad on the end, and you'll be ready for any/every soundguy who takes a DI from your amp.

There are other options, but as you can see, some of them involve things that take a little more work or knowlege to make operate correctly. It should be simple - need a DI out - amp has DI out. Problem - yours is hotter than most, and some soundguys will just tell you "dude, your signal's too hot - you're peaking my board!", without them having a good option to 'fix' it (either lack of know-how or gear) - Throw the pad on, and you are golden.
 

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