Diagnosing open string buzz and fret buzz on higher up the fretboard

[Ptbakes77]

I recently bought a used 2008 American Standard P Bass and am pretty happy with it. However once I changed strings to my preferred Roto 66s, I noticed a couple of issues:
--A noticeable fret buzz, primarily on the A string but E string as well, while digging in but not particularly hard. Only the softest playing does not cause buzz.
--Buzzing on E, A, and D strings past the 7th fret or so. It's so bad on the E string that the notes are choked out past the 12th fret.
--Rattling sound on all open strings plucked hard, not particularly noticeable through an amp but very noticeable without one.

I tried just about everything recommended but still am at a loss. That includes:
--Since I noticed the buzzing was most noticeable on the E and A strings, I changed strings and wound them as low as possible, on the tuning posts, three winds on top, in the case that it was a break angle issue. Did not resolve the buzz and does not explain the higher strings, nor that the buzzing is even more noticeable while fretting.
--Raising the action. It's about 2.8mm high on the E string at the 12th fret, and I wouldn't want to go higher.
--Checking if the string channels on the bridge were somehow worn down. Changed em around, no fix.
--Using a leveler up and down the fretboard to look for uneven frets. Nothing too out of the ordinary.
--Last thing I checked was the relief. I had already checked this when I first got the bass and it was normal, one business card, .010 feeler gauge. Checked it again and if anything there was slightly too much relief, but I resolved that and that had no bearing on the issues I'm having.

About to give up and find a good repair shop but figured I would reach out and see if there were any other possibilities I'm not considering.

 

[Zooberwerx]

Set your witness points at the machine head posts, nut slots, and bridge saddles?

Riis

 

[Ptbakes77]

Set your witness points at the machine head posts, nut slots, and bridge saddles?

Riis

This is a new term for me. I looked over this post https://www.talkbass.com/threads/witness-points-the-pictorial.1217291/ to understand and from what I can tell my strings are coming off my tuners and bridge as straight as possible. I appreciate the response though

 

[Zooberwerx]

This is a new term for me. I looked over this post https://www.talkbass.com/threads/witness-points-the-pictorial.1217291/ to understand and from what I can tell my strings are coming off my tuners and bridge as straight as possible. I appreciate the response though

Great…which leads me back to the original question. Witness points just don't happen…you have to set them manually with a little ooomph to establish a true…hopefully buzz-free…string path. This is paramount for a new or existing string install.

Riis

 

[Ian774]

Aren't you supposed to check neck relief first; then adjust saddles accordingly ?

 

[Nebadon2000]

Did it work fine 'before' string change?

 

[SpiderBass1965]

Have you checked for a shim between the neck and the body? The last owner might have added one for their setup preferences.

 

[smtp4me]

A few questions:

• Did the buzz exist before the string change?
• Are the new strings heavier or lighter gauge than the previous?
  • Heavier gauge strings vibrate with less range of motion - lighter gauge strings might, by nature, require slightly higher action and/or neck relief depending on your playing style. But you've already adjusted both...
  • You also checked for high/low frets

I would say to check nut slot height, but the nut is removed from the equation when you press any fret
It could also be a neck shim that needs removed or a smaller (thinner) one put in

 

[StringCanvas]

How comfortable are the lower frets to play? What is the string height set to? Even if that doesn't say why there's a discrepancy between the lower and higher, it's still good information to have for the scenario.

Did it work fine 'before' string change?

I think this is probably the most telling question. If yes, then in my extremely non-expert opinion of order I'd check (based on not only likeleyhood but also ease of doing it):

1. Check the witness points and make sure there is a clear set
2. Check to see that there is a good break angle on the other side of the neck (you need to leave a lot of winds on those E and As to make up for the lack of break angle). I wouldn't think this would only cause high rattles- in fact I'd think it'd cause low rattles- but something easy to look at
3. Either remove a shim that doesn't need to be there or add a shim to the front of the neck (this is my guess)
4. Truss rod adjustment (I didn't jump straight to it because it doesn't seem like it's scooped, just rattles on the high)
5. Perhaps something more flawed with the neck (very unlikely if it played well before the recent change)

 

[Ptbakes77]

Did it work fine 'before' string change?

I don't remember as much rattling, but the choked out notes on the E string's higher frets were there

 

[Ptbakes77]

Aren't you supposed to check neck relief first; then adjust saddles accordingly ?

Yes I only did it last because it was the least likely problem. Checked action afterward

 

[Ptbakes77]

How comfortable are the lower frets to play? What is the string height set to? Even if that doesn't say why there's a discrepancy between the lower and higher, it's still good information to have for the scenario.



I think this is probably the most telling question. If yes, then in my extremely non-expert opinion of order I'd check (based on not only likeleyhood but also ease of doing it):

1. Check the witness points and make sure there is a clear set
2. Check to see that there is a good break angle on the other side of the neck (you need to leave a lot of winds on those E and As to make up for the lack of break angle). I wouldn't think this would only cause high rattles- in fact I'd think it'd cause low rattles- but something easy to look at
3. Either remove a shim that doesn't need to be there or add a shim to the front of the neck (this is my guess)
4. Truss rod adjustment (I didn't jump straight to it because it doesn't seem like it's scooped, just rattles on the high)
5. Perhaps something more flawed with the neck (very unlikely if it played well before the recent change)

String height is set to 2.8 mm, high. I'm not noticing any of these problems before the 5th fret. No shim either--I'll try adding one, but having done that before, this is a different problem.

Concerned now about a neck flaw but won't jump to any conclusions!

 

[Ptbakes77]

Great…which leads me back to the original question. Witness points just don't happen…you have to set them manually with a little ooomph to establish a true…hopefully buzz-free…string path. This is paramount for a new or existing string install.

Riis

Theres a first for everything! I pressed down firmly on those points after the tuning pegs and off the bridge (which were a little curved, tbh) but did not resolve the issue

 

[Ptbakes77]

• Are the new strings heavier or lighter gauge than the previous?
  • Heavier gauge strings vibrate with less range of motion - lighter gauge strings might, by nature, require slightly higher action and/or neck relief depending on your playing style. But you've already adjusted both...

The previous owner had half round strings installed. I suspect my current strings are heavier gauge or at least stronger tension but I don't know the exact brand he used

 

[iammr2]

Increase your neck relief. Depress at the 1st fret and the 15th. Then measure at the 7th fret. Set that from .012 to .014 and see if that helps or fixes it.

 

[logdrum]

I only heard witness points use here on TB. I think it is easier to just say bending point. Not sure what is being witnessed and if the saddle is rounded it is not exactly a point

This is a new term for me. I looked over this post https://www.talkbass.com/threads/witness-points-the-pictorial.1217291/ to understand and from what I can tell my strings are coming off my tuners and bridge as straight as possible. I appreciate the response though

But what needs to happen is for that angle to not be as rounded as much as possible. Does this bass have through body stringing.> Try that

Also check that the neck plate are snug but do not tighten so hard , Bad batch of strings? Check the gauges. La Bella sent A - C once of their tapes

 

[Ptbakes77]

I only heard witness points use here on TB. I think it is easier to just say bending point. Not sure what is being witnessed and if the saddle is rounded it is not exactly a point

But what needs to happen is for that angle to not be as rounded as much as possible. Does this bass have through body stringing.> Try that

Also check that the neck plate are snug but do not tighten so hard , Bad batch of strings? Check the gauges. La Bella sent A - C once of their tapes

I considered bad strings but I've changed them once already and that didn't change much. I'll look into the neck plate. It does have through-body stringing and that was how the bass was originally set up. I prefer top loading but worth considering. Thanks!

 

[Zooberwerx]

Theres a first for everything! I pressed down firmly on those points after the tuning pegs and off the bridge (which were a little curved, tbh) but did not resolve the issue

Do the nut slots, as well, as that may be causative. We're looking at the forward / fretboard aspects. Good chance this will drop your string height so tweak as necessary.

 

[J Wilson]

Don't wind up chasing your tail and jumping between adjusting this and that. Always . . .

Relief set, then

Action set, then

Intonation set, then

Pickup clearance

. . . . and always and only in that order with brand new strings.: Used strings will always lie to you. Hopscotch one over another, back and forth, and now you're a ricochet in a house of mirrors.

. . . . and I'd check that the unfretted clearance over the first fret is .020" on all four, and you've already checked for bogus frets.

On the other hand, if you really feel you've hit a dead end, search out an experienced, qualified guitar tech and take it in. You don't want somebody's buddy that works on geetars, you want a tenured pro.

There's many things that could be going on that it is simply impossible for us to diagnose over the WWW, aside from any number of guesses. Work through the process above, and/or find the right tech. I would say .010" is pretty flat, and unless you have a reasonable touch, it may rattle regardless with a heavy-handed style.

All the Best,


JW

 

[Ptbakes77]

Appreciate all the responses. Worked through all the steps, and embarrassingly the problem it came down to was the simplest one, the action. I measured it after capoeing the 1st fret and turns out it was lower than I thought. I didn't think it would make a 0.5 mm difference but here we are. Still gonna get a pro set up but the problem is not as dire I as I thought. tl;dr I'm dumb