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Double Bass Diagnosis help...

Blackjac97

Blackjac97

May 27, 2012
1,248
1,441
Maine
#1
Hey folks,

Some people who read this may remember me from this past summer. I was on quest for a bass and ended up buying a butterscotch-colored '56 American Standard from Volker Nahrmann. Here are the deets about the buying experience, just for reference. The quest is over! | TalkBass.com

Well, today, being home on break from college, I decided to get my bass out and take 'er for a spin. It's been about a month or so since the last time she and I had an encounter. I didn't bring it to college with me for the new semester. Big bass, small dorm room, ya know.

Anyway, when I was taking it out of the case, I had my hand on the rib of the lower left bout while unzipping the bag, with the bass on its side, and I heard five or six creaking sounds. I acknowledged them, thinking it was just an old bass making "sounds" (the same way old houses just make "sounds") and went about playing. Noticing the action was tad low, I laid 'er down to go about adjusting the bridge a little. In that process, I noticed a visible crack on the bottom side of the same rib. I got out my phone and turned on the flashlight, and peaked inside. What I found is scary.

There are somewhere in the ballpark of two-dozen 1/2"-2 1/2" long hairline fractures all over the inside of that rib. Some of them are visible from the outside of the bass. The plywood is tangibly slightly soft in the areas where these cracks occur.

Here are pictures. I know they're not great, but they're the best I could do with my phone.

insed_cracked_rib_whole.JPG inside_cracked_rib_close.JPG outside_cracked_rib_spot.JPG outside_cracked_rib_whole.JPG

What could have caused this? Does this need to be repaired? If so, how much? What does this do to the value of my bass? Any advice or help is greatly appreciated. If I've done something naive, please take it easy on me, I'm not in the best mood to begin with as you can probably guess.
 
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#2
I bet dryness caused it. You should maintain 30-40% humidity in the room the bass stays in. Since the ribs are ply, I would think the cracks don't go all the way through (those on the outside rib may not go through either). When the bass is better humidified the cracks may close up.

Do I see a seam separation between the top and side? If so, that is easily repaired.

This is my non-luthier idea, anyway.
 
#3
The plies in the ribs and plates of your bass are almost certainly held together with hide glue. Hide glue is not a fan of excessive dryness, so theoretically dried out hide glue could have caused sections of the ribs to buckle before the inter-ply glue failed altogether. Theoretically.

Call Herr Nahrmann; he's a luthier, I'm a monkey with a homemade glue pot.

If the cause was excessive dryness, it shouldn't be that difficult to restore the integrity of the glue joints. Even if you need to add new glue between the plies, it is possible to drill small holes in the plates near the weak spots, inject new glue and touch up accordingly.

In the meantime, it might not be a bad idea to remove string tension.
 
#4
I don't think its dryness causing the problem, (and i don't agree that hide glue has a problem with dryness); I think its just age. In the 1930s urea formadehyde glues were very common for laminating as well as soy-based glues, casein and traditional hide glue. I think if it were glued with hide glue it would probably still be OK ... but if it is urea formaldehyde or soy it may well be breaking down. Heat and time does this. So what you're probably seeing is cracks forming as the rib flexes with brittle powdery glue inside, releasing the laminations. It may only be localised problem that can be reinforced, patched, reglued, but the only way of finding out for sure is having a luthier look at it closely.

By the way, this doesn't sound to me like the end of your bass, but it is an oldish laminated one, and will have maintenance issues, unlike a well-made new bass ;-)
 
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#5
I had the debate so many times whether to go old or new. Old basses have already gotten most of their problems, new basses will get them. That whole debate, ya know? I ended up buying the bass that I liked, but I'm not so sure that I like all the little problems.
 
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#7
Blackjac97 said:
I had the debate so many times whether to go old or new. Old basses have already gotten most of their problems, new basses will get them. That whole debate, ya know? I ended up buying the bass that I liked, but I'm not so sure that I like all the little problems.
Click to expand...
Actually, old basses have started having their problems. It's not that they get through them and then the problems end. With a well-made new bass you have time before onset. Still, as you did, best to buy the bass that speaks to you. Sorry to hear of your troubles. Indeed, a good luthier should get you going again.
 
#10
The lamination issues are a symptom of something. What concerns me is that the top was reglued with the ribs out-of-shape and that glue-joint with the top is holding the ribs out-of-shape. THAT could well be what is causing the stress which is reflected as lamination cracks and/or internal glue failure.

If so the solution would be to open the bass, get the rib back in shape, re-glue the laminations if necessary, re-attach the top and then get back to work on intonation.
 
#11
American Standard basses are an interesting breed. Around here they get a lot of praise for the big voice, but everyone forgets to mention they have their own issues. The neck joint is almost the same as an old Kay, so they fail with an almost predictable regularity, and the ribs have a particular cancer that is VERY common. I've had about six of them pass through the shop in the last month. Half of those have the very familiar rib deterioration- they tend to get a lot of cracks and generally start to disintegrate. One of them is the worst that I have ever seen. Once the process starts, it will keep on going and the sound will gradually deteriorate until they are basically just three loose plys mildly coupled together with some old glue dust- over the long haul that huge American Standard voice will get less and less. I believe that the cause lies somewhere in their production process- like the rib room was seasonally too cold or the glue not hot enough or the open time to long for the proces of getting everything into the mould and clamped up possibly combined with less than stellar laminate material; something like that because they occur in almost 50% of the old American Standards and the pattern is almost always identical. It is also more common in the Amreican Standards that have highly figured maple for the inside ply, and not so much for the outside. On those, there tend to be a number of factory paper tape type patches on the inside plys.

I have the suspicion that since they were made in the same facility that made King basses, and the Kings used a much higher grade of materials most of the time, the fancy materials on the inside of American Standards may have been the reject pile from the Kings that got recycled back into the production process. Anyway... it can be repaired. I have a new bass specific workbench and jig setup that addresses the problem very well. Since you need to be able to get a lot of clamping pressure from all areas, it is best to have the top (or back) off for this process. I'll try to get a few photos later today. Sure, you can regulate the humidity, you can wear one of those giant baby bibs, you can do all sorts of things to limit it, but the best thing you can do for your old American Standard is to play the $#!& out of it like every day is your last day and have a reasonable relationship with someone who knows how to work on it when things go wrong, or better yet find a mentor and learn to maintain it your self.

I have two old basses on the workbench right now with major rib issues- one is a '36 American Standard with the rib cancer- a lot of patiece is required to get it back up and running , but with that you can completely reassemble the rib garland and have almost no change in the overall mass of thickness of material. I like that a lot. The other is an original Hawkes about 40 years older that has probably 400 rib garland cracks and has been worked on by everybody in the business so much that almost the entire rib garland has been covered with almost 50 huge rib patches that effectively cover up the whole garland, double the weight and bring the rib thickness to over 5mm and choke the entire bass, just so that they can keep the original ribs. I don't like anything about that.....


j.
www.condino.com
www.kaybassrepair.com
 
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#12
So, James, What you're saying is that I've gotten myself into a bass that needs a lot more time and money than I have available? I mean, I wanted a bass that can be left to sit for a couple of months at a time so when I come home from college, I can pick it up and play it. Is this something that truly needs constant attention? What would be a rough, ballpark estimate for opening the bass up and performing the operations you mentioned?
 
#14
doesn't change anything really though. I think, if you just want a bass you can come home and play during college break, you don't really need to do much. just play it. it's not going to implode.

if on the other hand you want a pristine bass with no cracks and as new condition for show or sale, spend $ on it.
 
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