• TalkBass has been independent since 1998. Add your voice.
    Create a free account to reply to discussions, view embedded media, and browse with fewer display ads.
    Join freeLog in
    Want zero display ads or expanded classifieds tools? Compare plans.

Double Bass Did Academia Kill Jazz?

I am currently reading “Three Shades of Blue”, about the making of Kind of Blue and Miles, Trane, and Bill Evans.

The interesting part when bebop hit was that the players themselves were proud of making music that demanded attention and contemplation, rather than dance music. They were excited to make art, not be entertainers.

These guys listened to modern orchestral music and desired that kind of dense, intense music and harmony.

There’s one part where it is recounted that they looked down on the dance gigs, even though they toured and had to play dance halls, but would really raz their fellow bandmates who did showman type stuff, the worst of which was walking the bar - literally walking along on bar while soloing. They saw it as just shy of being an Uncle Tom.

So one cause seems obvious: the giants themselves didn’t want to play dance music. They were making serious art and that’s what they wanted to put their time and energy in to.
 
Given how we sometimes tend to apply a "the theory behind these notes, or chord progression is.." as opposed to the more traditional "If it sounds good, it is good"
It’s not mutually exclusive. ;)

The stereotype of the guy that knows a ton of theory but can’t play a decent bass line is 99.9% BS passed by guys who don’t know theory AND can’t play a decent bass line.
 
In my very uninformed (about jazz) opinion, yes to an extent academic approach to music has curbed the popularity of jazz.

In my very uninformed (about popular music) opinion, music with popular appeal has a certain flow. Creation of energy - creation of suspense - resolve of suspense - return to the familiar.

Some of the most popular music today does all that in two bars, which is why we scoff at its simplicity. If it takes 4 or 8 bars then it’s common songwriter product. If it takes 12 bars, well, you all know what takes 12 bars. And if it take 16 or more to return to familiar; then it is probably Rush.

The payoff to the listener is rewarding their expectations. In my limited exposure to jazz, I don’t hear the intent to satisfy expectations. Instead I hear the intent to defy them.

But I really don’t know what I’m talking about, so at least I rank pretty high on a self-awareness scale maybe.
 
  • Like
Reactions: HolmeBass
Maybe worth mentioning, probably 95% of the non-musician listening public wouldn't know any of these conceptual issues even exist at all about jazz music. They probably don't even realize jazz music is jazz music. It's only musically obsessed people like us who even care about most of this -- which means if you're reading this, you're on the very edge of the fringe -- we're really out there. :D
 
I thankfully began playing jazz music in the early 1970's. I love it. It is an art form that arrived to us long before modern academia wrapped its arms around it.
The United Nations Educational, Scientific and Cultural Organization or UNESCO has been strong advocate for this art form globally. Herbie Hancock serves as Goodwill Ambassador for Intercultural Dialogue at UNESCO and is the chairman of the Herbie Hancock Institute of Jazz. I spent years myself playing jazz music in Japan, England and The Netherlands. It is alive. Please allow me to post this link here for everyone to enjoy and thank you.

UNESCO International Jazz Day 2026
 
Don’t worry the AIs are going to save jazz, the moment when jazz will be the only music being played by real people with real feelings.

And the other good notice is that all the kinds of jazz that feed on formulas e g algorithms will also be taken over by AI and loose attraction for all people who resist the invitation to become a part of the machine hence not wanting to be stripped of all the qualities unreadable by themAI models.

Jazz will again become the sound of the resistance, producing the only sounds capable to mark the difference of human vs machine.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Earl
Most are also under no delusions that jazz is ever going to be a super popular art form again. But that doesn't mean that they don't still regularly sell out their small/medium venues, as there is still an appetite for live jazz music.

Jazz is ALIVE. But you have to seek out the new on its own terms

I find that people espousing that jazz is dead or completely institutionalized are usually misinformed and not actively in the scene.

I agree with these. As someone who listened to genres outside of jazz for a greater part of my life, I've observed that the same stuff happening to those genres also happened to jazz. Some people would say, "Rock is dead" but if you searched hard enough around your local music scene, you'd find indie bands with a decent following.

I've also learned that music is a way of socializing with other people, and when I started digging into jazz, it's still the same. I'd go to our local jazz bar, meet my friends who are passionate about it, discuss about jazz, life, or funny stories, etc. Whatever others say about jazz, they won't affect what's happening in our local scene, the fun times I have with my friends, or my amazement every time I watch a jazz show.

Jazz is certainly alive here in Taiwan. On the later part of this year, I'd have the opportunity to go to Japan twice. I'm excited to visit the local jazz bars there and check out the CD shops. Many albums are exclusive there.

And certainly, there are new jazz being made. Our local jazz bar, despite being just two years of age, have also managed to host various artists such as Jisu Jung:



And I'm recently digging this South African band:



Older musicians such as Hiromi is also still making music:

 
A major issue with 'Jazz Academia' is the perception of it relative to Classical music, which again kind of hearkens back to the 'Wynton Marsalis Effect', when Jazz effectively, intentionally, was reframed as something that needed 'saving' to 'preserve it' by a certain segment of the Jazz community. Classical Academia really is the study of strict pedagogy, history, and strict reinterpretation of previously written works. Accuracy and nuance - and 'perfection' - are lifelong pursuits, but unless it's a modern/new piece that's being performed, it's about rote readings in pursuit of the ultimate, most 'correct' interpretation of a piece. Some Jazz musicians approach the Jazz canon in the same way, which adds to the confusion and incorrect perception of what Jazz academia is (or should be) about.

I wonder how many people come through Classical institutions and then become classical COMPOSERS, versus just performers? I think it's helpful to think of (and possibly reframe) Jazz Academia in relation to that. Certainly plenty of people go through Jazz college programs and never really aspire to become composers - they're cool with always performing standards as written and always being sidemen - which I think is a disservice to themselves and to the art form. As I said in a prior post, Jazz is intentionally - by default - music of NOW. It's not a museum piece. Some measure of originality and innovation and immediacy is the point of the music and the discipline, even if you're 'reimagining' standards - or hopefully writing new pieces to expand and explore your own vocabulary and what you hear. It's up to students, and progressively-minded instructors, to remind people of that. Learning the 'canon' and the vocabulary is just the start.... but it's not the end in and of itself. Most people who have a poor view of Jazz (and Jazz academia in general) often look at the music in the 'Classical' sense, when it should be anything but that.
 
Last edited:
:laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh:
While well meaning this is exactly the type of statement that leads to the "snobish" impression people have of Jazz, Classical, contemporary art, poetry ...
Art as an enriching experience and art as entertainment walk a thin tightrope.

I think the hostility / suspicion towards academia stem from it's status as gate keepers.
It's really hard to preserve and foster growth at the same time
This isn't about well meaning. It's a statement that formalizes the important idea that any art or creative expression should be able and allowed and perhaps even encouraged to do something more than make you comfortable or reinforce what you find comforting, enjoyable or even that which makes you happy. If there's snobbery in that...

Dance to Ornette Coleman like it's raining fire, and you're Elaine from Seinfeld. Whatever moves you.

I think the idea that if you don't like something or understand something then those things are automatically elitist or highbrow isn't fair, although a very predictable human reaction admittedly, but that is an idea and bias position that continues to persist.

I'm not saying these things to argue your every point, but rather to springboard off them and crystalize some thoughts further.
 
@Chris Fitzgerald did I miss your post?

Hi Sam, I had not yet posted but have been watching the subject.

My thoughts on this are very complicated, and also very simple. In no particular order:

- This subject is very tired, one of the closest things something as esoteric as jazz gets to "ragebait". There's this topic, then there's "Younger players don't respect the tradition/the music/their elders", followed by a lot of outraged old jazz man in bathrobe shaking fist at the universe. Both of them cause me to roll my eyes and generally avoid them.

- "Academia" is not a single entity, any more than any country or ethnicity or religious denomination or political affiliation is a single entity. Within all of these things, there is an entire spectrum of belief and experience, so to lump them all together to try to make some broad brush generalization like this always strikes me as disingenuous and attention seeking.

- "Jazz" means different things to different people. Like "swing", it can't really be nailed down in words. But if I had to say in the most general way what it means to me, it could stand for a history of stuff that has been nominally called "jazz", which I would describe something along the lines of the practice of improvising, usually but not always collectively, over and around a shared musical vehicle or intentional lack of same. In English, to me that means people get together to have (hopefully) spontaneous improvised musical conversations about a shared musical topic. Beyond that, see my objections to generalizations related to the word "academia" above.

- As a "musical academic", or in English, "music teacher at the collegiate level", I view my job as some combination of informing students about the tradition, imparting basic theoretical and technical strategies to help them further their music making, and providing a small but tight knit community of like minded enthusiasts of the art where they can explore the possibilities of implementing these things together. At my school, the faculty consist of a broad range of perspectives, from very conservative to very exploratory. I am on the latter side of that equation in our program, which no doubt would make some people laugh, but it's a good system and I think it works well. We all play well together, I think (but feel free to visit the share your recordings thread and make up your own mind about that), better than we likely would if we all came from exactly the same perspective. Because we as faculty are all so different, the students get a wide range of perspectives and challenges.

- Is jazz dead? No. There are still gigs going every night in my town in multiple venues - Live Jazz in Louisville - and we are something like only the 28th largest city in the states. The players here are strong, and many are graduates of our program.

- Is jazz dead because it's damn near impossible to make a living doing it? No. The correlation of any art form's viability with its popularity and/or earning power is a particularly pernicious western perspective which is quite frankly antithetical to art. The greatest authors do not always sell the most books, the greatest craftsmen usually don't have their wares on the shelves at Walmart, etc. In my view, real art should exist first and foremost for its own sake, because it satisfies a need for expression on the part of an artist.

- When I play gigs, I am most often playing standards at bars or clubs as a part of some social fabric of the place. After that, sometimes I get to play listening concerts. In both situations, if I'm playing standards, it's not about the money; it's about mining the material for something new that I haven't already said 1000 times, trying to deconstruct it so that it bears new fruit. With the right people on the bandstand, this can be a revelation. With the wrong ones, it's damn near impossible.
I wonder how many people come through Classical institutions and then become classical COMPOSERS, versus just performers? I think it's helpful to think of (and possibly reframe) Jazz Academia in relation to that. Certainly plenty of people go through Jazz college programs and never really aspire to become composers.

This is a valid point. My degrees in college were all in theory and composition, which at the time were all centered on the classical side of the aisle, although I was playing jazz on the side. I view improvisation as simply spontaneous composition, plain and simple. The difference is that there is no option to go back and edit and polish once you've played something. For me, largely eschewing formal composition was a healthy choice, because I'm too much of a perfectionist to really let anything go, and also because it's a very lonely way to live IME. I still write the occasional formal composition:



(is this jazz? Don't know, don't care... it's just something that got stuck i my head and I had to work it out to stay relatively sane)

...but what I really love about jazz is that there's nowhere to hide. You play how you play, as well as you play, in that specific moment and everyone can hear it immediately. Want to sound better for whatever reason? Practice more and listen more. That, for me, is the simple part, and the part that keeps me going after all these years.
 
This is a valid point. My degrees in college were all in theory and composition, which at the time were all centered on the classical side of the aisle, although I was playing jazz on the side. I view improvisation as simply spontaneous composition, plain and simple. The difference is that there is no option to go back and edit and polish once you've played something. For me, largely eschewing formal composition was a healthy choice, because I'm too much of a perfectionist to really let anything go, and also because it's a very lonely way to live IME. I still write the occasional formal composition:



(is this jazz? Don't know, don't care... it's just something that got stuck i my head and I had to work it out to stay relatively sane)

...but what I really love about jazz is that there's nowhere to hide. You play how you play, as well as you play, in that specific moment and everyone can hear it immediately. Want to sound better for whatever reason? Practice more and listen more. That, for me, is the simple part, and the part that keeps me going after all these years.


There was a time when I definitely beat myself up after EVERY SINGLE SOLO, because I hadn't written enough original music yet to feel like I could find a reason and identity in music to feel 'valid' beyond what I played over X standard. Standards were the only metric, and your solo was the litmus test. While I still care deeply about expressing myself and what I play over 'standards', I had to find my own voice and my own way of dealing with them... and I learned to be a lot kinder to myself. That's one of those things I had to work on coming out of school, where the aim was to always find fault with the last thing you played, or talk about how down you are about your playing on set break!

There are some standards I REALLY like, and I always find something new in them each time I play them. But there are some that I actively ask 'why am I playing this? What is inspiring about it?' I used to be afraid to say no to something because X tune is considered 'sacred' in the 'canon'. Now, I don't give a crap. I'm not playing it if it doesn't inspire me. Life's too short. We play best on compositions that inspire us to pick up the instrument in the first place... otherwise it's just 'academic'.

As far as the composition thing goes, I definitely am informed by the more modern composers of the genre from the latter half of the 20th century, into the current millennium... folks like Wayne Shorter, Pat Metheny, Sonny Rollins, Charles Lloyd, Charlie Haden, Ornette Coleman, Bill Evans, Brad Mehldau, Joshua Redman, Michael Brecker, etc etc. Not a lot of 'bebop'. Some of their works have become 'standards' in and of themselves.... and their songs tell THEIR stories. The focus on making a conscious effort to write songs which spoke to them to create their own 'canon' (as Brad Mehldau has referred to on many occasions as well) is the same fire that keeps me moving.

I would be remiss if I didn't also point out one very important aspect of my 'Jazz academia' experience: 25 years or so ago we had an active local collective called the AVL Jazz Composers Forum, which was modeled after the Jazz Composers Collective in NYC (that Ben Allison leads/led). Almost every month for several years, there were concerts with guest composers who were brought in to perform their works (from NYC and all around the country), and local composers (myself and many of my colleagues and scene-mates included) received invitations to compose and perform our works as well. I was heavily involved with the collective for many years, and I credit every single concert and interaction/networking opportunity with solidifying my focus on original music first and foremost. Having that world functioning alongside what I was 'formally' studying just up the road at my University was an invaluable period of time that I still hold dear.
 
Last edited:
This quote sums it up "At some point, jazz went from the music of youthful rebellion to that of the cultured elite."
I know I’m not saying anything that hasn’t been said already but I think academia is what is keeping jazz alive. Why else would a bunch of teenagers/young adults become interested in an art form that’s less popular than children’s music? If there were no jazz schools to shine a light on this music, it probably would have died a long time ago, or definitely been even more fringe than it already is.
 
I know I’m not saying anything that hasn’t been said already but I think academia is what is keeping jazz alive. Why else would a bunch of teenagers/young adults become interested in an art form that’s less popular than children’s music?
So within "academia" we have to include secondary education. A surprising number of great pro jazz players got their start from the high-school program here in tinytown Prescott.

 

Latest posts