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Diminished chord application...

68Goldfish

68Goldfish

Nov 4, 2006
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Port Orchard WA
#1
Hey all. I came across an interesting chord movement thing while learning a Christmas song for my band and I thought I'd share it. The interesting thing to me is that two different chords can be used (seemingly) in a part of the chord progression and they both seem to work. The song is jingle bell rock and it's in the key of D. There's a part in what I guess would be called the B section of the tune, the part where the vocals go "what a bright time, it's the right time.." where it goes up to the major 4 chord. Here's where it seems interesting to me, I've seen some instances where after the G major (4) the next chord is G minor and then back to the D. But I've also seen some instances where instead of the Gm there's a G#diminished chord. I'm probably overthinking this but it seems strange that both chords work so perfectly under the melody. Why is that? I guess the melody must not contain any notes in either chord so nothing clashes. And I guess it's just the songwriters choice. Which makes me wonder why the #4 diminished chord seems to lead into the root so well. I guess it's a voice leading thing. doesn't matter as long as were all playing the same chord
 
#2
A G# diminished is the same notes as a G minor except with the root raised a half step. If the root isn't an important part of the harmonic flow, the substitution works.
 
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#5
Chopin's Op. 28 #1 bars 22-23 has almost the same thing, I think of it as VII°7/V->I (with the I in second inversion--so the bass goes #4->5. Then in that piece it goes to the V right after that.).

Odd association, maybe, I've been a little obsessed with that prelude, so it popped into my head....
 
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#6
bfields said:
Well, and the third....
Click to expand...
Oh yeah I forget the 3rd isn't (further) flattened in the diminished. Wonder what you call it when it is, I use that as a passing chord in some of my guitar playing. Would that be a doubly-diminished? Or maybe just some nonsense sequence of tones I happen to like.
 
#7
The G sharp diminished chord and the G major chord do share the same third and fith. Obviously the G minor chord has the flatted third. That’s what was interesting to me was that the G minor and the G sharp diminished seem to have the same pull towards the tonic. Either one will work as long as the whole band is on the same page.
 
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#8
bholder said:
Oh yeah I forget the 3rd isn't (further) flattened in the diminished. Wonder what you call it when it is, I use that as a passing chord in some of my guitar playing. Would that be a doubly-diminished? Or maybe just some nonsense sequence of tones I happen to like.
Click to expand...

It's a dominant seventh, actually! Spell it out carefully, and you'll see it.... That "diminished third" is a second, the one between the seventh and the root of a dominant seventh.
 
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#9
bfields said:
It's a dominant seventh, actually! Spell it out carefully, and you'll see it.... That "diminished third" is a second, the one between the seventh and the root of a dominant seventh.
Click to expand...
Oh yeah funny how that works out, thanks! I can start feeling these tensions forming and resolving as I play with these chords, but my jazz chord theory understanding isn't always good enough to know the right words, but that "unlocks" it for me, thanks!
 
#10
OP...
A diminished chord is a passing chord between two chords that wants to resolve generally to a root OR inversion a 1/2 step above. It enhance the bass melody and harmonize the melody and brings some outside notes to the key to resolve.

In your case it seems like the 6th bar of a Blues where the IV chord goes to #IV o7 who wants to go to the I/5 (D/A). This is a good place for a bass player to go to that inversion on the fifth with a chromatic run (depending on the style, tempo and instrumentation).

It is good to know that sometimes a xo7 is actually a V7b9/3. In your case a E7(b9) with G# in the bass.
 
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#13
68Goldfish said:
what a bright time, it's the right time.." where it goes up to the major 4 chord. Here's where it seems interesting to me, I've seen some instances where after the G major (4) the next chord is G minor and then back to the D. But I've also seen some instances where instead of the Gm there's a G#diminished chord.
Click to expand...

As Groove Master has mentioned in his comment,
(from here: Using the Diminished Chord - what is a diminished chord? - dim7 chord - how to use the dim chord in jazz - chords - chord changes - jazz - guitar -- Bruno Pelletier)

"In a Jazz Blues progression, a #ivdim7 generally follows the IV7 (measure 6).
For Blues in F, we will find Bdim7 right after Bb7 instead of staying on the Bb7 for 2 measures. Now we know that Bdim7 is essentially the same chord as Bb7(b9). We are not changing very much harmonically by using a diminished #iv chord here, but it creates a desirable forward movement, especially if we keep moving up chromatically to F7/C (the I7 chord with the 5th in the bass)."

Now, let's take a look at the melody notes in that spot.
(Our example is in the key of C; therefore, F is your G, F#dim7 is your G#dim7)

We have a repetitive motif of C to D, to C. In the second measure, we could stay with the same chord but we would lose a nice harmonic forward movement. We can use a compositional/arrangement device (in order to produce that movement) and use a borrowed chord (the same subdominantly-functioning) from C minor - mode mixture.
That's what you have in that G major to G minor harmony movement.

It would produce the harmonic movement forward Fmajor to Fminor and it would not(!) affect our melody notes - C , D, C.
Or, we could use that Diminished chord - F#dim (7) - and it, also, would not affect our melody notes.
If you take a look at the rest of the Chorus measures, you'll see that while melody is using the same notes of C, D, C, the harmony is Amin7, D7.
In short. We have a needed harmonic movement.
P.S. Please take a look at the bass line, the way it moves from F to F# to G with the C chord.


JBR-1.PNG
 
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#14
Jingle Bell Rock has another example of using the diminished chords.
"...the diminished chord is generally used as a excellent CONNECTOR. Diminished substitutions are an effective way to smooth out chord progressions."
Using the Diminished Chord - what is a diminished chord? - dim7 chord - how to use the dim chord in jazz - chords - chord changes - jazz - guitar -- Bruno Pelletier

One could find the C#dim chord in between the C and Dmin7 chords.

P.S. For some reason, I tend to see the diminished chords - C#dim in our case as some derivative from the Secondary dominant chords - the A7 chord.



JBR-2.PNG
 
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#15
Whousedtoplay said:
As Groove Master has mentioned in his comment,
(from here: Using the Diminished Chord - what is a diminished chord? - dim7 chord - how to use the dim chord in jazz - chords - chord changes - jazz - guitar -- Bruno Pelletier)

"In a Jazz Blues progression, a #ivdim7 generally follows the IV7 (measure 6).
For Blues in F, we will find Bdim7 right after Bb7 instead of staying on the Bb7 for 2 measures. Now we know that Bdim7 is essentially the same chord as Bb7(b9). We are not changing very much harmonically by using a diminished #iv chord here, but it creates a desirable forward movement, especially if we keep moving up chromatically to F7/C (the I7 chord with the 5th in the bass)."

Now, let's take a look at the melody notes in that spot.
(Our example is in the key of C; therefore, F is your G, F#dim7 is your G#dim7)

We have a repetitive motif of C to D, to C. In the second measure, we could stay with the same chord but we would lose a nice harmonic forward movement. We can use a compositional/arrangement device (in order to produce that movement) and use a borrowed chord (the same subdominantly-functioning) from C minor - mode mixture.
That's what you have in that G major to G minor harmony movement.

It would produce the harmonic movement forward Fmajor to Fminor and it would not(!) affect our melody notes - C , D, C.
Or, we could use that Diminished chord - F#dim (7) - and it, also, would not affect our melody notes.
If you take a look at the rest of the Chorus measures, you'll see that while melody is using the same notes of C, D, C, the harmony is Amin7, D7.
In short. We have a needed harmonic movement.
P.S. Please take a look at the bass line, the way it moves from F to F# to G with the C chord.


View attachment 3634695
Click to expand...

Excellent posts! Thanks for taking the time. To everyone involved actually. One thing I did notice is that both chord iterations have a chromatic movement right to the A which is obviously the fith of the D root chord. Like the B is the third of the G major then the B flat is the third in the G minor and then finally the A being the fith of the D chord. The other way has the G for the G major. Then the G sharp for the diminished chord then finally the A for the D chord.
Rocket science? No, but pretty cool anyway.
 
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