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Do away with dogmatism

#163
Back when I was more active in this thread, I was on a different side than Chris.

I accept that for everything you play, there's an aspect of theory to go along with it. What I wanted was not to abandon theory, but more to open up the access to theoretical approaches that are rather less common in the west. Go on teaching jazz theory and harmony, classical theory and harmony, but make it easier for those who wish too to access, say, the maqam system, or gamelan.

I have no problems at all with western musical theory; to abandon it is not my intention. All I really wanted was a somewhat expanded access to theoretical approaches to music that is not commonplace here in the west.
 
#164
This kind of reminds me of a story I read somewhere. I think it was Wynton Marsalis:

"Some time ago, the tenor saxophonist Frank Foster was playing a street concert from the Jazzmobile in Harlem. He called for a blues in B-flat. A young tenor player began to play "out" from the first chorus, playing sounds that had no relationship to the harmonic progression or rhythmic setting. Foster stopped him.

"What are you doing?"

"Just playing what I feel."

"Well, feel something in B-flat, motherf**ker."
 
#165
SpawnofHastur said:
Back when I was more active in this thread, I was on a different side than Chris.

I accept that for everything you play, there's an aspect of theory to go along with it. What I wanted was not to abandon theory, but more to open up the access to theoretical approaches that are rather less common in the west. Go on teaching jazz theory and harmony, classical theory and harmony, but make it easier for those who wish too to access, say, the maqam system, or gamelan.

I have no problems at all with western musical theory; to abandon it is not my intention. All I really wanted was a somewhat expanded access to theoretical approaches to music that is not commonplace here in the west.
Click to expand...

that's exactly it. a strong basis in harmonic theory, not associated with any particular form of music but with harmony itself, would be the most useful springboard into specialization. not only would that make all different kinds of world music equally accessible, but it would also encourage students to invent and experiment with their own theoretical creations.
 
#166
SpawnofHastur said:
I accept that for everything you play, there's an aspect of theory to go along with it. What I wanted was not to abandon theory, but more to open up the access to theoretical approaches that are rather less common in the west. Go on teaching jazz theory and harmony, classical theory and harmony, but make it easier for those who wish too to access, say, the maqam system, or gamelan.

I have no problems at all with western musical theory; to abandon it is not my intention. All I really wanted was a somewhat expanded access to theoretical approaches to music that is not commonplace here in the west.
Click to expand...

The music teacher that I kind of quoted at the start of this thread tought music history & theory on traditional harmony and other systems,
like gamelan- & minimal music, Indian and Asian tonal systems, avant garde approach toward these methods, etc..
All with examples and theoretical explanation.

Then, playing in a band the guitarist says, the only logical approach to make a song is a blues scheme and 3 chords.
And after experimenting for months with all kinds of possible variations on song building and welding parts and themes
together; we should just play straight forward rock & roll, that's what the audience likes.

Just to show you that an expanded approach to music isn't always appreciated by your fellow musicians that rather play the blues.
 
#167
JimmyM said:
See, Chris' whole premise is based on the idea that if you start right in with theory, then you can't think for yourself and you've imposed limitations on yourself that you wouldn't have had if you just fumbled around for a few years and then learned theory. What he doesn't get is that for everything you can do musically, there is a theory lesson to explain it. So these folks who think they're doing something original when they come up with a sound you never heard before? Well maybe you never heard it THAT WAY before, but trust me...there's a theory lesson to cover it.

BTW, the number of people who actually accomplish that is miniscule, with or without theory.
Click to expand...

I fully agree with you (and I DID get that.)
Mostly because you move from practical play to theory, seeking understanding.
Also I would never deny the positive effects of theretical knowledge on creativity.

But genius is scarce, as you say. With me, anyway. So let us not bury it under wagonloads of theoretical homework, certainly not when giving advice to beginners.
 
#169
Goofball Jones said:
This kind of reminds me of a story I read somewhere. I think it was Wynton Marsalis:

"Some time ago, the tenor saxophonist Frank Foster was playing a street concert from the Jazzmobile in Harlem. He called for a blues in B-flat. A young tenor player began to play "out" from the first chorus, playing sounds that had no relationship to the harmonic progression or rhythmic setting. Foster stopped him.

"What are you doing?"

"Just playing what I feel."

"Well, feel something in B-flat, motherf**ker."
Click to expand...

So he got into a bad mode.
 
#170
uethanian said:
that's exactly it. a strong basis in harmonic theory, not associated with any particular form of music but with harmony itself, would be the most useful springboard into specialization. not only would that make all different kinds of world music equally accessible, but it would also encourage students to invent and experiment with their own theoretical creations.
Click to expand...

Hear, hear!
 
#171
Stempelloos said:
The music teacher that I kind of quoted at the start of this thread tought music history & theory on traditional harmony and other systems,
like gamelan- & minimal music, Indian and Asian tonal systems, avant garde approach toward these methods, etc..
All with examples and theoretical explanation.

Then, playing in a band the guitarist says, the only logical approach to make a song is a blues scheme and 3 chords.
And after experimenting for months with all kinds of possible variations on song building and welding parts and themes
together; we should just play straight forward rock & roll, that's what the audience likes.

Just to show you that an expanded approach to music isn't always appreciated by your fellow musicians that rather play the blues.
Click to expand...

Your story GIVES me the blues.
 
#172
Stempelloos said:
The music teacher that I kind of quoted at the start of this thread tought music history & theory on traditional harmony and other systems,
like gamelan- & minimal music, Indian and Asian tonal systems, avant garde approach toward these methods, etc..
All with examples and theoretical explanation.

Then, playing in a band the guitarist says, the only logical approach to make a song is a blues scheme and 3 chords.
And after experimenting for months with all kinds of possible variations on song building and welding parts and themes
together; we should just play straight forward rock & roll, that's what the audience likes.

Just to show you that an expanded approach to music isn't always appreciated by your fellow musicians that rather play the blues.
Click to expand...

Nor should it always be! I love blues, rock and roll, and traditional music. And I'd love to play it in a band setting, too. If I'm going to experiment, it's gonna be with a bunch of like-minded folks who are happy with it.

There were folks who didn't like what Charlie Parker, Dizzy Gillespie, and those other cats were doing with jazz when the bebop scene first began- and that's entirely cool. It's up to people to choose what kind of music they play and like. All I really want is that for those of us who want to experiment a bit there's more resources and access.

I have no desire to force my experimental music on everyone- I listen to and enjoy Merzbow, but I'm not gonna push him on folk that don't like it. All I want is that people who want to experiment can with a bit more ease.

In fact, I think the existence of musicians who would rather just play the blues is a valuable part of the music world, and exemplifies an important part of creativity. If everyone wanted to play the same thing, be it crazy experimental stuff or blues, the world of music would be a sad place- because we wouldn't have either forward progression, or the living tradition of the past to draw on.

I'm cool with varied opinions musically. All I want is easier access to the less conventional stuff- easier access doesn't mean forcing it on folk.
 

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