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Do flats last forever?

#41
GianGian said:
I thought that he played there because the strings had a lot of tension, sice they barely move when he plays.

The whole physics thing got me confused...I always thought that the fatter the string is, the fatter the tone is. But there are people saying that the floppier the string is, the fatter it sounds...:confused:
Click to expand...

I bet the reason JPJ's strings "barely move" is that he has a relaxed, economical approach to bass playing. Playing with a light touch is a good way to get a fat sound; if you dig in and play really hard, the strings "clank" against the frets and you get a lot of trebly noise.

There are many, many factors that contribute to a "fat tone." Strings are just one of these factors. For example, my 30" scale EB-0 with a .095 roundwound E string sounds "fatter" than my 34" scale Pedulla with a .105 flatwound E string.

Sorry if we confused you with the physics! :)
I was using the physics to try and explain my own personal real-world experience, not the other way around. My point was that you are making an assumption that fatter strings = fatter sound, and I was encouraging you to test this assumption before you strain your hands and your bass playing a .120 E string to sound like JPJ! Have you tried my experiment yet tuning your bass up a half step?

Back to your original question, though, my advice is buy a set of normal-gauge flatwound strings and try them out. I think they will get you closer to that sound in your head. I am a big fan of flatwounds and I recommend TI Jazz Flats. They only come in one gauge. :)
 
#43
Thought I'd throw my two cents in.

Assuming you could increase the gauge (thickness) of the string without affecting the tension or pitch, you would get a "thicker" or "fatter" tone. And decreasing would get you a "brighter" or "thinner" tone.

Assuming you could decrease the tension without changing the thickness, you would again get a thicker, fatter tone. And increasing the tension, assuming the pitch and thickness remained constant, would get you a thinner, brighter tone.

BUT the problem is that when you change one thing, it affects the others. You've got three basic variables at play here, mass (thickness), tension, and pitch. When you change one of these, you change at least one more in the process.

If you increase tension and keep the thickness the same, you raise the pitch. Decrease lowers it. If you increase thickness and keep tension the same, you lower the pitch. Thinner raises it. This is why four different strings, at roughly the same tension, give you four different notes. Here's the key: if you want to keep the same pitch, when you change the thickness, you must also change the tension.

So de-tuneing often allows you to get a thicker sound because you are decreasing the tension, but keeping the same thickness. The trade off is that you've lowered the key of your bass.

When you change the gauge of your strings, buy thicker for example, but you keep it tuned the same way, you don't always get the result you expected. You get thicker strings, but the tension increased so it doesn't really sound any thicker. Sometimes this causes it to sound hollow instead of thick.

GianGian said:
I thought that he played there because the strings had a lot of tension, sice they barely move when he plays.

The whole physics thing got me confused...I always thought that the fatter the string is, the fatter the tone is. But there are people saying that the floppier the string is, the fatter it sounds...:confused:
Click to expand...

So to explain that, yes, the fatter the string, the fatter the tone, if you don't change the tension. So you've got to change the pitch (down tune).

Also, if you have floppier strings, again you get a fatter tone but only if you don't change the thickness, so you must change the pitch (down tune).

And now you understand why metal bassists so often down tune :)

Just as a side note, we're ignoring some other variables like length and stiffness. I'm assuming those stay the same. But just like above, changing one of those affects all the other variables. For example, this is why it's easier to get a good B on a longer scale bass, you can use thick strings, have a decent amount of tension and you offset it by increasing the length.
 
#44
JDBernard's explanation is good!
Here is an example of my experiment with some real numbers.
Let's say you have a set of strings that's .100-.080-.060-.040 (this will keep the math real simple). Let's also assume that this set of strings has even, consistent tension, feel, and tone from string to string.

Now you say "I want to try a different gauge of these exact same strings. I wonder if I should get .105-.045 or .095-.035?"

Experiment 1 is to tune up a half step to FBbEbAb. This will give you approximately the same tension, sound, and feel as the .105 set.

Experiment 2 is to tune down a half step to EbAbDbGb. This will give you approximately the same tension, sound, and feel as the .095 set.

Don't believe me? Think about it this way. "I want to try a set of really, really heavy strings," you say. Maybe a set of .120-.100-.80-.60 gauge strings (to keep the math easy). How can you test what this would feel and sound like, without buying a new set of strings? (Hint: you can't test what the E string would be like, but you can test the other 3 strings.)

Part of it comes down to semantics, though. There is no way to measure "fatness." To me, a high-gauge/high-tension string sounds "tight, focused, punchy," and a low-gauge/low-tension string sounds "fat, warm, pillowy." If you were into a tight punchy low end, I totally see how the high gauge string could sound "fat" to you.
 
#45
My experience with six string guitars- especially acoustic- is that the string thickness does fatten the sound but not as much as HOW you play it. If I want a fatter sound I play closer to the neck. I usually play acoustic guitar with my fingers anyway and that gives me a quiet, but nice, sound.

Bass is the same thing- at least for me. I will move my right hand before I start messing with my volume/tone knobs. Fatter sound? Closer to the neck. Sharper? Go on down to the bridge baby (speaking of JPJ, where's that confounded bridge?).

This whole "string theory" is more than the sum of it's parts. :D
 
#49
i just put some ernie ball heavy-gauge power slinky rounds on my GSR200 after having d'addario medium-gauge chromes for 7 months. i still have the strings wound up in their case and definitley intend on using them again. at this moment the music i play pretty much calls for the bite of rounds. but flats are amazing and are really worth the $10 extra.
 
#52
I remember reading an inteview with John Paul Jones a few years back and he said he hits the strings hard and gets alot "clank" on the fretboard. I am just repeating what I read. In the movie The Song Remains The Same there are some close up's and his strings on his Fender Jazz sure look like flats. They sure sound like flats on the first two Zep. albums.
 
#54
p-bass said:
I remember reading an inteview with John Paul Jones a few years back and he said he hits the strings hard and gets alot "clank" on the fretboard. I am just repeating what I read. In the movie The Song Remains The Same there are some close up's and his strings on his Fender Jazz sure look like flats. They sure sound like flats on the first two Zep. albums.
Click to expand...

Yeah, they sound a lot like flats, but I hear no clanks on his sound. Just deep and muddy bass.

nasaldischarges said:
flats were made for clanking

especially roto's
Click to expand...

Steve Harris agrees!
 
#55
I haven't changed mine since I bought my '72 Fender Fretless P-bass in 1995, and no telling how old were even then. They still sound good with the perfect intonation. But just in case, I still have a NOS pack of Fender medium nickel flats that came with the bass. They had to be from the Seventies or maybe Eighties. The price tag was $20.
 
#56
p-bass said:
I remember reading an inteview with John Paul Jones a few years back and he said he hits the strings hard and gets alot "clank" on the fretboard. I am just repeating what I read. In the movie The Song Remains The Same there are some close up's and his strings on his Fender Jazz sure look like flats. They sure sound like flats on the first two Zep. albums.
Click to expand...

There are some Youtube clips of early Zeppelin, and those strings sure look like flats; shiny and long against the light.

They also sound like flats on the first couple albums in in those clips. Perhaps JPJ wants to stir the mystique a bit.
 
#57
They do last a very long time but I don't like it when they sound too dead or if the windings at the bridge start to show separation so I usually end up changing them anywhere from 6 months to 2 years.


George
 
#58
Ric5 said:
Do flats last forever?

nope they can brake like any other string.
Click to expand...

True. I had a set of LaBella Deep Talkin' Bass stainless steel flats on my Ric for about 4 years.. then I broke the D string.

Those are great flats... not too thuddy, and they always sound like they did when you first put them on.

They aren't as heavy as the Jamerson set either.
 
#59
p-bass said:
I remember reading an inteview with John Paul Jones a few years back and he said he hits the strings hard and gets alot "clank" on the fretboard. I am just repeating what I read. In the movie The Song Remains The Same there are some close up's and his strings on his Fender Jazz sure look like flats. They sure sound like flats on the first two Zep. albums.
Click to expand...

Probably Rotosound flats. They are very bright. So are some of the LaBella flats.

He absolutely used flats for many years, until he started using the BecVar 8-string. Everyone used flats back then... that's what all the basses came with. I never even saw a roundwound until like 1973. Even Entwistle recorded My Generation with LaBella Nylon tape wounds, which is also what Larry Graham used on all the Sly records.

That's how I used to break strings... even flats... hitting the strings real hard -- in my case with a heavy pick -- to get that attack.
 
#60
I doubt JPJ's memory is trustworthy; he's said different things at different times, and honestly, how many of us could pinpoint what strings they were using decades ago with any accuracy?

Entwistle changed to Roto rounds soon after MG, and the set he developed with James Howe is still around, the venerable and awesome sounding Swingbass 66 set. There is no reason to believe JPJ didn't have access to or know about these strings during the period under discussion, either, and I suspect they were more common earlier in the UK where they were made than in the US. So there really is no way of knowing what he was using with 100% certainty- playing near the neck with bass heavy EQ could sound like either, though my ears tell me flats, too.
 

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