pretty straight forward question, for those who run their own PA's...do you usually compress live (lead) vocals?
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do you compress live vocals?
- Thread starter mambo4
- Start date
- Feb 27, 2005
- 3,218
- 125
- Disclosures
- Full disclosure, I'm a certified Fender technician working in a music store that carries Fender, Yamaha, and Ibanez products among others.
In my dance band, yes, absolutely. The vocalist needs to cut, and there's not much need for dynamics (whisper quiet to loud roar just doesn't happen in top 40 stuff, IME.) Keeping her and the kick drum at a consistentlly loud volume helps out quite a bit in keeping the energy level up in the mix.
At church, no, not really, but that's more due to having a better sound system. Our singer is more likely to exceed the bandwidth his wireless is capable of transmitting (yeah, it happens) than he is to be buried, or exceed the headroom available on our M7. When we still had a Mackie board and few speakers, we used a compressor to make sure he always cut through the wall of guitar, drums, and bass without distorting. It was bad times. Now there's enough power to spare, we just turn the guitars down 'til we hear him, and it's still thunderous.
At church, no, not really, but that's more due to having a better sound system. Our singer is more likely to exceed the bandwidth his wireless is capable of transmitting (yeah, it happens) than he is to be buried, or exceed the headroom available on our M7. When we still had a Mackie board and few speakers, we used a compressor to make sure he always cut through the wall of guitar, drums, and bass without distorting. It was bad times. Now there's enough power to spare, we just turn the guitars down 'til we hear him, and it's still thunderous.
i compress live vocals, usually directly on each channel but i really prefer parallel compression (this keeps compression out of monitor mixes if there is no separate monitor desk). just got two empirical labs mike-e pre amps, best of both worlds... there is a mix knob for the compressor.
I always do, but lightly - just enough to control dynamics. Many beginning soundmen (including me, when I was younger) 
incorrectly use compression as some sort of "boost."
I use the makeup gain only to, well, make up any perceived volume loss from the compression. Generally, I go 2:1, moderately fast attack, moderately slow release (not VERY fast or slow), soft knee, and adjust threshold to the singer to reduce gain by about 6 db - just tickling the vocal - and makeup gain up 6 db. OF COURSE, every singer is different, but this is what I start with, and I always adjust to the situation.
As for compression in the monitors - if you're getting feedback, that's an issue with level or a particular frequency, and not so much compression per se (unless, again, you're jacking the makeup gain).
Whenever possible, I leave the channel uncompressed (so that the monitor sends are uneffected), and instead insert the compressor on the bus group (if the board is so equipped).
I've also tried parallel compression on vocals, and while it certainly sounds good in some applications, it's usually tricky to route on some consoles. If the console has a direct out (preferably pre fader) on each channel, just route that into the line input of the next open channel, and then insert the compressor on the latter. Again, though, this can be tricky to keep track of live.
incorrectly use compression as some sort of "boost." I use the makeup gain only to, well, make up any perceived volume loss from the compression. Generally, I go 2:1, moderately fast attack, moderately slow release (not VERY fast or slow), soft knee, and adjust threshold to the singer to reduce gain by about 6 db - just tickling the vocal - and makeup gain up 6 db. OF COURSE, every singer is different, but this is what I start with, and I always adjust to the situation.
As for compression in the monitors - if you're getting feedback, that's an issue with level or a particular frequency, and not so much compression per se (unless, again, you're jacking the makeup gain).
Whenever possible, I leave the channel uncompressed (so that the monitor sends are uneffected), and instead insert the compressor on the bus group (if the board is so equipped).
I've also tried parallel compression on vocals, and while it certainly sounds good in some applications, it's usually tricky to route on some consoles. If the console has a direct out (preferably pre fader) on each channel, just route that into the line input of the next open channel, and then insert the compressor on the latter. Again, though, this can be tricky to keep track of live.
I like the vocals smooth and on top. As such, I usually compress the hell out of live vocals. I split the vocals, so the monitor sends are uncompressed. I sometimes also compress the vocal bus just for fun. I cannot parallel compress, as I get comb filtering (the Rane C4 is a digital device and thus has a bit of latency). I also run sidechain EQ, so I get less compression on the loud highs instead of the lows*.
*As the insert send to the comp is post EQ, the proximity effect of the mic really pounds on the compressor unless you use sidechain EQ to fix this.
*As the insert send to the comp is post EQ, the proximity effect of the mic really pounds on the compressor unless you use sidechain EQ to fix this.
oh, it's absolutely true.
when the vocals in the monitors are compressed, they seem less loud to the singers, who will then need levels turned up. this will quickly lead to feedback that disappears when they sing (and the gain reduces) but reappears when they stop and the gain comes back up again.
also, the singers don't get an accurate feel for how hard they're singing and will tend to blow their voices out.
i definitely compress vocals out front, so that i can keep them just over the band where they belong. it helps a lot when i'm playing and mixing at the same time, as it's easier for me to keep vocals where they belong when i can't always be riding the faders.
I used to run two compressors. I inserted them into 3 vocals and the kick drum. As I am re-tooling my PA, I am wondering if I should just compress the FOH. It's mentioned earlier about the monitors being compressed and vocalist having to work harder. Would this work or would it eliminate quieter signals running through the FOH?
Responses are all over the place, but not too far out there to be helpful...
The artifact that makes compression bad in the monitors can cause problems in the house mix as well. What happens is that the gain reduction does just that. If the ration is too high, or the threshold (the level that compression starts) is really high, the overall gain us turned up to compensate. This pushes the open mic into feedback-inducing levels. When someone sings, the level is compressed below the feedback levels, but when the singing stops, the level goes back up. That's a really bad thing in monitors, but it can cause problems in the house, too.
One really needs to be careful to not over-compress things, especially vocals. If a singer sings fairly evenly (most professional singers do), their singing is fairly even and the dynamics they use don't need to be compressed (I'm speaking live here, recording is another story). For the rest of us, some compression is helpful to keep the peaks under control. I generally use no more than 3-to-1 ratio and I make sure only the peaks in the vocal hits the threshold. And as rightfully mentioned, one must be wary of using compression when the same console is handling both house and monitors.
There's nothing inherently wrong with compressing the house mix, but again, it must be done sparingly. I could make some blanket statement about no more than 2 or 3-to-1 ratio, but I also recommend that the operator spend some time seeing what works with the equipment they use. The parameters are a little different between analog stand-alone units and the built-in comps in digital consoles these days. For instance, on analog DBX comp units I could get away with a 4-to-1 ration to get what I needed, but on nearly all digital surfaces I've run across, 3-to-1 is all it ever takes.
Man, I gotta stop here. This could go on for a while. And as always, YMMV...
The artifact that makes compression bad in the monitors can cause problems in the house mix as well. What happens is that the gain reduction does just that. If the ration is too high, or the threshold (the level that compression starts) is really high, the overall gain us turned up to compensate. This pushes the open mic into feedback-inducing levels. When someone sings, the level is compressed below the feedback levels, but when the singing stops, the level goes back up. That's a really bad thing in monitors, but it can cause problems in the house, too.
One really needs to be careful to not over-compress things, especially vocals. If a singer sings fairly evenly (most professional singers do), their singing is fairly even and the dynamics they use don't need to be compressed (I'm speaking live here, recording is another story). For the rest of us, some compression is helpful to keep the peaks under control. I generally use no more than 3-to-1 ratio and I make sure only the peaks in the vocal hits the threshold. And as rightfully mentioned, one must be wary of using compression when the same console is handling both house and monitors.
There's nothing inherently wrong with compressing the house mix, but again, it must be done sparingly. I could make some blanket statement about no more than 2 or 3-to-1 ratio, but I also recommend that the operator spend some time seeing what works with the equipment they use. The parameters are a little different between analog stand-alone units and the built-in comps in digital consoles these days. For instance, on analog DBX comp units I could get away with a 4-to-1 ration to get what I needed, but on nearly all digital surfaces I've run across, 3-to-1 is all it ever takes.
Man, I gotta stop here. This could go on for a while. And as always, YMMV...
Imle non professional singers can have awesome vocal chops but lack mic control, rendering their range impossible to reproduce without either compressing or dropping out/suffering clipping in their channel, I'm not one to sit there riding their input gain. A little compression goes a long way.
- Jan 27, 2010
- 4,141
- 471
- Disclosures
- Endorsing Artist: Genz Benz Amplification
I like my own vocal compressed, because I do songs that range from pretty low to moderately high, and the dynamic range swings pretty wide. I have good mic technique, but if I back off the high stuff enough to keep it from blasting it ends up sounding thin and far away. A little compression knocks off the 5 or 6 Db I need so that I only have to back off about an inch. So I'm still controlling my own dynamics, but I have more control within a smaller range of motion.
Of course. Not because of volume -- I use mic control. (WHich is why I hate headset mics) , but it makes any harmony blend tightere. Anyone who disagrees is misunderstanding something.
The theory is that they try to sing louder when the compressor is working - the louder they sing, the lower the volume, so they try to sing even louder to compensate, which causes the compressor to attenuate even more, which makes them sing louder, etc.... I'm not 100% sure I buy into it, at least not 100% of the time for 100% of singers. If it's a real problem, it might be that the compressor being set wrong.
I didn't ask the question properly. It's a real problem, but it's not the compressor's fault. It's some combination of lack of technique, non comprehension of the limit of dynamic range available AND compressor settings.
in the monitors?
because that's exactly what happens.
(now we're talking rock band stages, i wouldn't see it being a big deal at a piano lounge bar gig.)
