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does an amp can be damaged for playing it at the max volume and master?

#21
One of the problems is that most of the "research" being done is how you have just done it - on Google.

It seems to me most of the "experts" are quoting some other "expert" without the research either - once something gets posted on the internet, others take it as gospel and perpetuate it.

I would like to find the original paper on this myth - I would bet you could trace all of the internet noise back to the original. And remember, just because the source has a famous name on it doesn't make it correct. Everyone makes mistakes.
 
#22
Kevinmach said:
Then perhaps those of you who don't believe it can call the editors and sound engineers of Crutchfield magazine and tell them they're wrong- I've seen articles on this multiple times over the years. What would they know about sound, right? They only do it for a living.

I searched and I could not find an expert source saying it was myth- just a bunch of yahoos in forums saying they didn't believe it. (and I am not being snarky- they search results were all just a bunch of forums like this with one with hobbyists saying they didn't believe it)
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In that case, as Jimmy said, get a 25 w amp, hook it up to a cab, and max it out. Guarnteed problems because it is underpowered? I think not. :rollno:
 
#23
slyjoe said:
I would like to find the original paper on this myth -
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It's here: [Invalid or Expired Link Removed]
What all of the armchair experts, let alone retail sources that should know better, fail to take note of is that it specifically addresses the potential for clipped waveforms to damage High Frequency Drivers. That's midranges and tweeters, not musical instrument woofers.
I searched and I could not find an expert source saying it was myth-
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Then you didn't google my name. :D
Or read this:
http://billfitzmaurice.net/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=1886
 
#26
From what I've read about speakers being blown, on underpowered solidstate amp ,the amp goes to clipping the signal and it is a square wave signal and the harmonics are in the Odd order and that is what is the issue ...according to what I've read ... a friend who does speaker repair usually see this as the issue with PA horns ,,,, not much in bass cabinets .... it really takes a lot of current to cook a well designed bass driver.
 
#27
slyjoe said:
Thanks Bill - I figured you knew where this started. I also remember seeing something similar from Electro-Voice many years ago.
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No doubt, and both they and JBL probably got their information from something Harry Olsen wrote back in the '30s or '40s. What's nice about JBL is that most of their technical library is available for free on-line. Anyone the least bit serious about audio should have these:

[Invalid or Expired Link Removed]
[Invalid or Expired Link Removed]
 
#28
It seems to me most of the "experts" are quoting some other "expert" without the research either - once something gets posted on the internet, others take it as gospel and perpetuate it.
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Minor point of order, but the information I read *did* come from credited sources, not internet searches. The internet searches I looked for I was for credit sources saying it was a myth. And the sources I read about low power damaging speakers both post and pre date the Internet. So that was not a factor.

But this will obviously not be solved here- studies done in the early 2000s indicated that oil in your should be changed about every 10,000 miles and that changing it every 3000 added no benefit. So now you have 2 camps debating the issue for ever, just like this one. And of course, both studies were done by credible sources, so who knows...

And let me be clear so I understand your comments- you are agreeing that it can damage speakers- just not woofers? Correct?
 
#29
Correct. Tweeters and certain midrange drivers are damaged by clipping. Not woofers, ever. Guitar amps run all day, in full clipping, without damaging speakers.
In my experience, OVER powering is much more likely to damage a woofer, by overheating the voice coil.
 
#31
ashtray9 said:
Here's what I've always worried about...

What if I send so much juice to the coil that it melts and makes a short? If this is feasible, what would happen to the amp? Just pop a fuse?
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Any voice coil I've ever seen that was "melted", or damaged in any way left an open circuit, not a shorted one... VC wire is pretty fine - not any heavier than a typical fuse filament - so, they "blow", and leave an open circuit, in my experience...



- georgestrings
 
#32
UncleBalsamic said:
Which is more common in the bass world Bill, mechanical damage or thermal damage?
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By perhaps a 60/40 ratio thermal, from long term heat build up, exacerbated by thermal power compression. The onset of mechanical damage can literally be heard coming from a mile away, because a driver will fart out and go into severe distortion on average at no higher than 1/4 the power required to reach mechanical limits. When mechanical damage does happen user error is the real cause, since you'd have to ignore a lot of nasty sound for it to occur.
Guitar drivers OTOH are designed to clip with relatively low input levels, typically at less than 1/10 of the power where mechanical damage can occur, so they almost always succumb to thermal damage.
Any voice coil I've ever seen that was "melted", or damaged in any way left an open circuit, not a shorted one... VC wire is pretty fine - not any heavier than a typical fuse filament - so, they "blow", and leave an open circuit, in my experience...
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True, though melted insulation can result in a short across the turns. This doesn't create a dead short, but can result in a low enough impedance to cause the amp problems. It's quite rare, but can happen.
 
#35
Kevinmach said:
Then perhaps those of you who don't believe it can call the editors and sound engineers of Crutchfield magazine and tell them they're wrong- I've seen articles on this multiple times over the years. What would they know about sound, right? They only do it for a living.

I searched and I could not find an expert source saying it was myth- just a bunch of yahoos in forums saying they didn't believe it. (and I am not being snarky- they search results were all just a bunch of forums like this with one with hobbyists saying they didn't believe it)
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billfitzmaurice IS an expert source. So is Bob Lee of QSC, who also posts on this site. So are Mark Reccord and others who post on this site. I suggest you do a search on those names before you propagate misinformation again.
 
#36
ashtray9 said:
Here's what I've always worried about...

What if I send so much juice to the coil that it melts and makes a short? If this is feasible, what would happen to the amp? Just pop a fuse?
Click to expand...

As to what would happen to the amp, the question is a solid state amp or tube amp.
As the fine wire burns it oxidizes (insulating from current flow), it is always possible to create a short, but highly unlikely. The open circuit to a solid state amp means nothing, to a tube amp the risk of output transfomer damage exists.
I am very familier with the JBL document at was aimed at higher frequency drivers, NOT low frequency drivers. It was not made clear enough and now any idiot miss quotes it without doing personal research. My apologies if that is found offensive to those that place complete stock in those miss quoting, but they have NOT done thier own homework or have other motives.
If common sense was as plentiful as BS a lot of people would need a new jobs? ;)

To the second part of the OP question, assuming the standard input level to the amp, running an amp "wide open" should cause no more damage to the amp than not running it at all. If you have a very hot input with an amp not designed to accept it, solid state input stages could be damaged on the first gain stage, tubes generally won't suffer. Exceed max. input level and you stress the amp beyond it's design.
 
#37
Kevinmach said:
Then perhaps those of you who don't believe it can call the editors and sound engineers of Crutchfield magazine and tell them they're wrong- I've seen articles on this multiple times over the years. What would they know about sound, right? They only do it for a living.

I searched and I could not find an expert source saying it was myth- just a bunch of yahoos in forums saying they didn't believe it. (and I am not being snarky- they search results were all just a bunch of forums like this with one with hobbyists saying they didn't believe it)
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argumentum ad hominem. You can't just say that because someone who is not an expert says it that it is therefore untrue. That argument just does not hold up. Lo siento.

Kevinmach said:
Minor point of order, but the information I read *did* come from credited sources, not internet searches. The internet searches I looked for I was for credit sources saying it was a myth. And the sources I read about low power damaging speakers both post and pre date the Internet. So that was not a factor.
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First of all, you say you searched outside the internet for credited sources. Then you say you looked on the Internet for the same info. I am confused as to your point. You can't say your information didn't come from Internet searches, only to then in the next sentence say that the Internet is exactly where you searched... In either case, can you point us to these sources, online or not?

I now remember why I don't go to the amps forum very often, so frustrating to see myths like this.
Less myths, more :bassist:
 
#39
Handyman said:
I know! Don't even think about turning your amp off, either! The crushing zero watts being pushed into the speaker will somehow, magically destroy the driver!

Honestly, haven't we been through this about 1E12 times already?
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No matter how many times we go through it, someone like him will show up who believes this crock and we'll have to reeducate him. It will continue in an endless cycle for the rest of eternity.
 

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