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does an amp can be damaged for playing it at the max volume and master?

Yes, and that's why I am so glad Sansamp invented the VT pedal. Run that thru an SVT and throw some drive on it and it sounds like a cranked SVT at low volumes...pedal of the future! :bassist:

The EQ on my amp is pretty pretty weird, in the way it works, so I can actually get some pretty snarly sounds coming out at relatively quiet volumes.

However, when I have money again, in a couple years (college student) I may get one of those pedals. Sounds like a good way to avoid giving soundguys headaches as well.
 
RMS doesn't in and of itself have anything to do with how clean the signal is. It's just an acronym(root mean square). A better number is watts RMS at some given amount of distortion. Even better than that is some insight in to the specific signal being generated.

A for real power amp will have a published spec that reads something like: 450 watts EIA 1 kHz, 0.1%THD. This tells you that the amp can generate 450 watts of a 1 kHz sine wave with 0.1% total harmonic distortion, and that the testing is carried out according to an established (EIA) protocol.

Most tube amps that even publish a spec will have something a good deal more vague. I've seen companies quoting numbers at 5% or 10% THD. That's about what I would expect is meant when you get a tube amp that just says '100 watts'.

An SVT is nowhere near 'clean' (in the same sense as a modern transistor power amp) when it is putting out it's published power of 300 watts.
 
RMS doesn't in and of itself have anything to do with how clean the signal is. It's just an acronym(root mean square). A better number is watts RMS at some given amount of distortion. Even better than that is some insight in to the specific signal being generated.

A for real power amp will have a published spec that reads something like: 450 watts EIA 1 kHz, 0.1%THD. This tells you that the amp can generate 450 watts of a 1 kHz sine wave with 0.1% total harmonic distortion, and that the testing is carried out according to an established (EIA) protocol.

Most tube amps that even publish a spec will have something a good deal more vague. I've seen companies quoting numbers at 5% or 10% THD. That's about what I would expect is meant when you get a tube amp that just says '100 watts'.

An SVT is nowhere near 'clean' (in the same sense as a modern transistor power amp) when it is putting out it's published power of 300 watts.
I knew one of you techie types would try to complicate things with your book learnin'! :spit:
 
EQ........ or master volume?;)

The whole front panel's pretty weird. Read up on the Mesa D-180 for further clarification. There are some informative threads here.

For a clean bass tone, on my amp, one turns the master up to 10 and then adjusts volume through the 2nd channel volume knob. Turning the master knob down to 8 or 9 will actually result in more grit, though less volume. It's bizarre. As is the EQ section (I call the whole thing the EQ for short because I'm dumb and don't know the word just for the gain and volume knobs section), with flat being mids set really high, and bass and treble almost off.
 
"Powering a speaker with a smaller than rated power amp (or any amp for that matter) driven into clipping can damage a speaker. Generally the high frequency components are damaged."

agedhorse (Genz Benz)

"Underpowering a speaker is dangerous only

A. if you run the amp into heavy clipping, and

B. if the amp is powerful enough to damage the speaker when it clips.

An amp's power rating is measured with sine waves and with little or practically no distortion. But with severe clipping, the waveform shape will approach that of a square wave, which has a lot more power and a lot more distortion.

For example, an amp rated at 200 watts with a sine wave could put out up to 400 watts with a square wave, at least for a short time. And if the signal is high enough to cause clipping that severely, even when it drops below clipping it'll be at a very high level. Therefore, the average power will be extremely high, and at times possibly higher than the amp's 200-watt rating.

Therefore, if the amp is driving a speaker rated at, say, 250 watts or so, there's a strong chance that it could burn out."


Bob Lee (QSC)
 
+1

My rule of thumb is that if I need to turn up past half way, time for a louder amp.

Volume controls have differing pot law (the attenuation curve of the volume control.) On some, halfway is 20dB down from maximum gain. On others, halfway is only 6dB down from maximum gain. In addition, how close you are to maximum gain does not have any correlation to how close you are to clipping the amp. So deciding you need a bigger amp because you are past halfway could be a very wa$teful thing to do.
 
"Powering a speaker with a smaller than rated power amp (or any amp for that matter) driven into clipping can damage a speaker. Generally the high frequency components are damaged."

agedhorse (Genz Benz)

"Underpowering a speaker is dangerous only

A. if you run the amp into heavy clipping, and

B. if the amp is powerful enough to damage the speaker when it clips.

An amp's power rating is measured with sine waves and with little or practically no distortion. But with severe clipping, the waveform shape will approach that of a square wave, which has a lot more power and a lot more distortion.

For example, an amp rated at 200 watts with a sine wave could put out up to 400 watts with a square wave, at least for a short time. And if the signal is high enough to cause clipping that severely, even when it drops below clipping it'll be at a very high level. Therefore, the average power will be extremely high, and at times possibly higher than the amp's 200-watt rating.

Therefore, if the amp is driving a speaker rated at, say, 250 watts or so, there's a strong chance that it could burn out."


Bob Lee (QSC)

In both of these cases the speaker will be overpowered beyond it's limits.

If the underpowering myth would hold true, then the more you "underpower" the more dangerous it should be, right? The confusion is created because a speaker can be overpowered even with an amp which has got a RMS rating that is less than the speaker is rated for.

What I'm saying is that a speaker rated for 200 watts can be burned out/blown up by every amp that is rated above 100 watts (roughly speaking). It has nothing to do with underpowering, it's just that the amps have the ability to put out more power than the speaker can handle.
 
What I'm saying is that a speaker rated for 200 watts can be burned out/blown up by every amp that is rated above 100 watts (roughly speaking). It has nothing to do with underpowering, it's just that the amps have the ability to put out more power than the speaker can handle.
Right on all counts. And you try to convince people of that, and they think you're a looney.
 
Well... If you need max volume, you need another amp.

Personally, Im not made of money, So I completely agree with this statement.

However, if your not familiar with the way Black Sabbath recorded, its a pretty interesting story.

Black Sabbath recorded most of their songs in one take. They would only do a second take if someone messed up something awful. Geezer Butler also learned to play bass on a Fender (Telecaster I think) Guitar, and played his first gig with a borrowed bass that only had three strings. He had Tony Iommi and Bill Ward to guide him in his playing, but the guy is just raw talent.

Geezer Butler and Tony Iommi would max out their amps. It was so loud they had to sit in another room, seperate from the amps. Rumor has it, that Geezer recorded their whole first album on 3 blown speakers out of 4. Thats where his sick distortion comes from. They did this because Geezer is a huge fan of natural distortion. He said he'd prefer that over digital distortion any day. Ol' Geez also played WICKED hard, and he didnt know he could take the pickguard off his bass, so he plucked over his highest frets.

Why did I bring up a random history lesson on Sabbath? Cuz of the Gear demolishing distortion they used.

So if you want to have NATURAL distortion, you can always buy an Amp with just enough power, instead of having one with extra head room. Keeping it at max, you'll most likely blow your speakers, adding more distortion, between the maxed (or nearly maxed) amp, and the damaged speakers. I wouldn't recommend doing this with solid state amps (at least the ones I'm used to playing on. Get yourself and old TUBE AMP kicker. Something old, cheap, abused. Then.....abuse it some more. Only huge problem with this kind of experimenting is that YOU BREAK YOUR GEAR OFTEN.

It's a great sound, and if you have the money to buy replacement heads and speakers / cabs then do it up if its your thing! Me personally, I perfer to be able to be distorted or clean when I chose too. Doing all this (did I mention it will damage your gear?) will take away any clean sound you hope of having.

And after all that, does maxed volume and gain hurt speakers? Hell yes
Can you make the best of a bad thing? HELLLLLLLLLZZZZ yeah :bassist:


-Troy
 
Good grief... the underpowering myth again? :crying:

There is so much bad information perpetuating itself that it's almost embarrassing for our industry.

1. Clipping of a signal generally does no harm to a low frequency driver provided it can handle the thermal and mechanical power.

2. A severely clipped signal will be close to 2x the power of the same signal as it begins to clip. Therefore, it is easier than you think to unintentionally OVERPOWER a speaker not realizing this fact.

3. A clipped signal damages high frequency drivers very easily because the power density to the high frequency driver shifts upwards in relation to the increased harmonics present in a clipped signal. If you have a 1kHz "square wave", there will be very large componenets at 2, 3, 4... kHz which will damage the relatively fragile HF driver.

4. Speakers for bass gtr. fail due to exceeding mechanical limitations probably 90% of the time. For HF drivers, it's aboout 90% thermal failure.

5. Power handling ratings of a speaker are grossly simplified down to a single "marketable" number. In fact, it's a series of curves that don't even come close to a single number. At very low frequencies, this real number can be 1/2 of the marketing number or less.

6. By far and away the biggest failure mode of low frequency drivers is exceeding the mechanical power handling. Just because a driver doesn't fail immediately doesn't mean you aren't doing cumulative damage to the suspension components when you exceed X-max.

7. Speaker failures can indeed damage speakers. Voice coils can short out when the insulation system becomes damaged by excessive heat or mechanical injury that results in shorted turns or a completely shorted VC.

8. A shorted HF driver presents the same shorted load to an amplifier regardless of the crossover being 1st or 2nd order. A short circuit is "zero" ohms and anythingin parallel with zero ohms is still zero ohms.

9. JBL had a tech brief for OEMs back in the 60's regardinguse of LF drivers for musical instrument amps, and for various duty cycles they had a derating curve down from the rated power. For compressed or clipped signals, derating by 1/2 was suggested.

10. The headroom argument that's commonly presented as the reason for powering at 2x RMS or greater is pure bunk if the system is actually driven to the point of clipping because at that point it's no longer headroom because it's being used.

11. Some manufacturers of power amps are guilty of recommending WAY more power than a speaker can handle except under ideal circumstances. Why? Because selling bigger amps is more profitable, not because it's in the customer's best interests. If it were in the customer's best intrests, then why do the same manufacturers power their powered versions of the same spaker at between 1.0-1.5x RMS, even with the perfect operating conditions (adaptive limiting, high pass filtering, optimum crossover, etc.)? Because it's a classic case of do as the do, not as they say. Also, because the engineers hold a lot more power over the marketing folks when they control what's inside the box.

12. Turning down the input sensitivity controls on amps does NOT reduce the ratedpower of an amplifier. The only thing it does is to increase the drive signal (input) level required to reach rated power. The average drive signal has 20dB of headroom above what's required to reach rated power on a typical amp.

13. Gain structure should not be set so that everything clips at the same time. This is one of the current myths that is so technically wrong as to be embarrassing to the industry. If a power amp (or drive processor) has a limiter (virtually all do these days), then you MUST have drive signal headroom in order for the limiter to limit down from. Otherwise as you cross the threshold into limiting, if the drive signal clips then for all intensive purposes the limiter doesn't matter one bit. The signal is still clipped. And at a high level too. I have seen more HF driver damage due to this myth leading the uninformed user to think they were "protected". For live sound, I like to see 10-12dB of headroom between the point that rated power is reached and the drive electronics clip. I believe this myth started because some of the DSP processors were pretty noisy and that was the manufacture's "BS" workaround. It should also be noted that the nominal drive levels of these processors are around +20dB rather than the typical pro level of +26dB which makes things even worse.

Hope this helps clear up some myths.

[end of rant] ;)
 
billfitzmaurice IS an expert source. So is Bob Lee of QSC, who also posts on this site. So are Mark Reccord and others who post on this site. I suggest you do a search on those names before you propagate misinformation again.

As the excellent post #73 from the gentleman at Genz Benz attests, I should have explicitly cited agedhorse in the above list of posters whom the OP, Kevin, and anybody else who wonders about this stuff should consult.
 
Good grief... the underpowering myth again? :crying:

There is so much bad information perpetuating itself that it's almost embarrassing for our industry.
[\quote]

+1 And thanks for the excellent write up.

3. A clipped signal damages high frequency drivers very easily because the power density to the high frequency driver shifts upwards in relation to the increased harmonics present in a clipped signal. If you have a 1kHz "square wave", there will be very large componenets at 2, 3, 4... kHz which will damage the relatively fragile HF driver.

I've observed and measure this not to be entirely the case with "music".

Granted that going from a Sine Wave to a Square Wave there would be increase in harmonics from the clipping.

I have tried this using various bass sound samples and software tools and found that it actually matches more to what the Rane Paper presents
[Invalid or Expired Link Removed]
Alternate verification:
http://www.st-andrews.ac.uk/~jcgl/Scots_Guide/audio/clipping/page3.html

That is the clipping itself does not "greatly" increase the harmonic content.

I'm sure you have at your disposal tools to verify this better than I could.

I tried it with a typical bass waveform. I used software to simulate a clipped signal so the clipping was "ideal".

I increased the input to clip, then through filtering removed the fundamental. Leaving just the HF content.

Then I did a second test, Removed the fundamental then increased the gain to the same as the signal with the clipping.

Both ran through spectrum analyzer.

In the above case the difference between the HF content was negligible.

It really was as the above references suggest that the HF content mainly came from the input signal.

I do realize that In real life there would be some differences such as the "bass" fundamental would suck power from the power supply and change what's available for high frequencies. The Rane paper refers to this as Bass Compression.

I don't have the tools to try this with real amplifiers and speakers but it would be interesting to get some actual manufacturer measurements besides Ranes.
 
Volume controls have differing pot law (the attenuation curve of the volume control.) On some, halfway is 20dB down from maximum gain. On others, halfway is only 6dB down from maximum gain. In addition, how close you are to maximum gain does not have any correlation to how close you are to clipping the amp. So deciding you need a bigger amp because you are past halfway could be a very wa$teful thing to do.

That's why I refered to it as my general rule.
 
Anyway, I think it's best to get a more powerful head than the cab, since in the end, it's all in the user. It's hard to be heard with a small amp, with a clean tone, while it's much easier to spot distortion and turn the volume pot down. Unless you actually LIKE clipping.

That's why I'm quite happy with my Little Mark (the yellow one, you Yankees probably haven't ever got hold of one, it has traditional power supply instead of a switching one) + my Ashdown ABM 4x10". I probably never engaged the limiter, and I honestly can't imagine needing more power than that. Unless you play in a really loud hard-rock/metal band, but then again, you probably wouldn't want a Little Mark or a Markbass for that matter.
 
I've observed and measure this not to be entirely the case with "music".

Granted that going from a Sine Wave to a Square Wave there would be increase in harmonics from the clipping.

I have tried this using various bass sound samples and software tools and found that it actually matches more to what the Rane Paper presents
[Invalid or Expired Link Removed]
Alternate verification:
http://www.st-andrews.ac.uk/~jcgl/Scots_Guide/audio/clipping/page3.html

That is the clipping itself does not "greatly" increase the harmonic content.

Look at table 2 and figure 1 in the Rane PDF. This is pretty accurate and assumes a 100 watt input.

If you take this as a full range signal (not biamped), input say 500 Hz at 500 watts (more typical of a bass system or PA system) and run the numbers based on the harmonic content they list in their data table, you will find that the 1kHz harmonic will be 5x as high and the 2kHz will be 5x as high and now we are talking about 30-40 watts going to a driver that's maybe good for 20 watts RMS (thermal).

This is why as you increase the size of an amp, it's even more important to avoid clipping or derate the HF driver even more.
 
Want to know the quick and easy way to kill your speakers?

Step 1: Plug in your bass (works great detuned).

Step 2: Turn the lows all the way up. If you have both parametric and graphic EQ's, turn the ultra lows all the way up as well. If you have a low boost switch, turn it on.

Step 3: Turn input volume all the way up.

Step 4: Turn master volume all the way up.

Step 5: Play really forcefully on your bass, hitting as many low open strings as possible. Play chords on the low open strings.

Unless your speakers are rated for way more than your amp puts out, you have now probably damaged or completely destroyed your speakers. Congratulations!

Seriously, if you hear any farty/flappy type noises coming from your speakers, turn down immediately. Avoid turning the lows all the way up if you're going to turn the amp all the way up. Use common sense. If it sounds bad, something's probably wrong and you should turn down.

You perhaps forgot to include boosting the bass control of the on-board active EQ?

Definitely hooking up some sort octave pedal or some big gain overdrive distortion pedal will be of use for this one.

"Are the speakers farting or is it the overdrive pedal?"

You'll know that one when the smoke starts coming from the cab!:D