Does anyone know what virtuoso means?

[Jeffrey Wash]

^^^

Both excellent posts.

 

[koricancowboy]

You reiterated my point. Virtuosity isn't just playing fast, and in your other thought saying outside the bass world they believe that virtuosity doesn't always mean speed. Again, that's what I am saying. Playing slow can also require a certain virtuosity at times...my remarks were pointed mainly at the people who consider a musician a "virtuoso" because they can play fairly accurate at high speeds, but I say there is more to it than that

Perhaps I did reiterate your intent but your posts are not succinctly saying so. If that is the case, then to use the bassist from AC/DC, whom you admittedly did not bring up but did use as an example, undermines the declaration of your intent. So I guess I am unclear as to your intent. If you are simply saying that virtuosity is beyond speed then yes I agree. If you are saying that virtuosity does not need to include the technical ability to play very fast, then I disagree. If you are trying to say that Cliff Williams is a virtuoso in any regard I wholeheartedly disagree. I love me some AC/DC. I've seen them ten times and Cliff does exactly what he is supposed to. Anything more would sound silly. But to call him or any player of his ilk a virtuoso is deluded at best. Examples for me include Edgar Meyer, Rinat Ibragimov, Charles Mingus, Barry Guy, Renaud Garcia Fons, Jaco Pastorious, Victor Wooten, Stanley Clarke and a whole bunch of other people. Like it or not technical ability, including speed is part of virtuosity. I find it interesting that this argument seldom comes up when I'm on a jazz session or in the orchestra. It is only when I talk to other rock electric bassists does this subject come up. Anyhow, do you mean virtuosity goes beyond speed or do you mean you can be virtuosic without speed?

 

[koricancowboy]

Oh and superbassman2000. Just checked your profile. Your birthday is the day after mine. Just thought it was kind of funny.

 

[Jazz Ad]

Based on my observation of the classic world where the term comes from, virtuoso means fantastic command of the instrument and has little to nothing to do with musical taste, in good or bad.
A virtuoso has the ability to play exceptionally difficult written pieces. He doesn't have to come up with them or choose parts.

 

[Stick_Player]

... as does Darryl Jones with the Stones.

Where does that place Bill Wyman?

 

[superbassman2000]

Oh and superbassman2000. Just checked your profile. Your birthday is the day after mine. Just thought it was kind of funny.

dig it!

well, the Cliff Williams thing wasn't so much my example, but I didn't say Cliff Williams was a virtuoso either--i said it was possible that he could be a virtuoso, but his current gig doesn't really afford him the opportunity to show the depth of his technical ability. It's possible that what he does now is all he can do on the bass, but to those of us that don't know Cliff outside of AC/DC, we can't really assume that's all he knows either. In the end, it's not about Cliff Williams lol but at the same time, if Cliff doubled with Angus on Thunderstruck (in an attempt to show off his technical ability) it would completely change the feel of the song.
So for me, I didn't mind going with the Cliff Williams example, because he does have that little stigma as a "simple" player, but at the same time, I think if he didn't control that pulse like he does, AC/DC would sound very different, and considering their demographic, it just plain wouldn't work imo--he plays the perfect line, even if it is just 8th notes on the root. I think the guys that we all attribute virtuosity to would all play the same thing.

 

[koricancowboy]

dig it!

well, the Cliff Williams thing wasn't so much my example, but I didn't say Cliff Williams was a virtuoso either--i said it was possible that he could be a virtuoso, but his current gig doesn't really afford him the opportunity to show the depth of his technical ability. It's possible that what he does now is all he can do on the bass, but to those of us that don't know Cliff outside of AC/DC, we can't really assume that's all he knows either. In the end, it's not about Cliff Williams lol but at the same time, if Cliff doubled with Angus on Thunderstruck (in an attempt to show off his technical ability) it would completely change the feel of the song.
So for me, I didn't mind going with the Cliff Williams example, because he does have that little stigma as a "simple" player, but at the same time, I think if he didn't control that pulse like he does, AC/DC would sound very different, and considering their demographic, it just plain wouldn't work imo--he plays the perfect line, even if it is just 8th notes on the root. I think the guys that we all attribute virtuosity to would all play the same thing.

Agreed.

 

[T-MOST]

The defining element of virtuosity is the performance ability of the musician in question, who is capable of displaying feats of skill well above the average performer.

(This Part is subjective) Musicians focused on virtuosity are commonly criticized for overlooking substance and emotion in favor of raw technical prowess.



Is there another definition?

 

[pnut166]

To the point: Virtuoso = someone waaaaay better than me

 

[carlthegroover]

How about this food for thought: maybe the definition of "virtuoso", or the flashy virtuosos themselves, becomes secondary/ irrelevant when you hear someone who might play simple but plays with his SOUL/ EMOTIONS, someone who really conveys the emotion he wants to...

Or maybe... being a virtuoso has nothing to do with fast playing/ technical chops but has everything to do with playing with your heart and soul? So, in a way, a true virtuoso is the one who make people feel things through music?

Just my 2 cents.

A virtuoso is someone who is no longer encumbered by technique. He or she has so mastered their instrument that what comes out is an extension of that person. Rather than being a bassist the person is a singer through the instrument. Fast or slow, technical or not, the music being made by the person is not subject to the same blocks in technique that those who are not virtuosi have to deal with. Part of technique is speed but it does not stop there. Being able to do anything, ANYTHING, the music calls for, with excellence is virtuosity. If one has to think about it, chances are they are not there. Cliff Williams is not a virtuoso. Just a solid classic rock player in the band AC/DC. In short a virtuoso can slay their instrument and kiss it tenderly too. Just my 2¢.

I wonder how long would it take for that to happen. 10 years? More? All personal differences aside.

A Groove is a Terrible Thing to Waste!

Maybe virtuosity has something to do with having a dominance over the elusive "groove", too. I read in a bass magazine once that, apparently, few people know how to even define "groove" or "rhythm" in a satisfactory way, let alone mastering it.

 

[Mayers]

Well ... their is virtuos in classical music and virtuos in other style of music.

Many virtuos in classical music are very young musician who play the most difficult music written and it is beautifully rended and well ... many times the most difficult music is fast and require technic above the norm and dedictation to accomplish.

Or they are composer like Chopin, Wagner, Stravinski, Bach, Shöenberg, Schubert etc ...(I don't think there is a musician nowaday that could compose music like them)

Virtuos in all other style of music is more harder to put a stamp on it. Many will say when they play what should be played or serve the song or a solo musician like Victor Wooten.

 

[Audiophage]

see, this is what I am saying--if a bassist can't play an AC/DC song with the right feel/restraint, then I would go so far to say that the bassist is not a virtuoso. A virtuoso excels in all aspects of the instrument, and if they can only play fast, and have difficulty playing slow, then I would argue that they don't have the instrument mastered.

+5,000,000

 

[anonymous122511]

A virtuoso has complete command of the instrument AND of the music.

 

[JimmyM]

Maybe virtuosity has something to do with having a dominance over the elusive "groove", too. I read in a bass magazine once that, apparently, few people know how to even define "groove" or "rhythm" in a satisfactory way, let alone mastering it.

"Groove" is one of those really nebulous terms that means different things to different people, so naturally it's going to be difficult to define. Personally, I find it rather useless, as all it really means to me is "playing well, in time, with the right feel for the music."

 

[SactoBass]

Being on talkbass for almost 10 years, I notice a recurring theme among the ranks--people seem to attribute virtuosity to fast playing, and commonly playing too much. Mostly when I see people make the polls regarding playing like a virtuoso vs. playing simple lines, or even worse, "playing what the song calls for".

If anyone reads the definition of virtuoso, it makes no reference to speed, just basically someone who excels at their instrument (in a musical context). That doesn't mean 64th notes at 300 BPM. It really only means they are capable of pulling it off. A virtuoso has the musical ability to know when to play the whole notes (or not even play at all) and when it's time to turn up the heat.

Or am I just trolling?

To me, it's all about knowledge, experience, and capability. For example, I consider Steve Howe of YES a virtuoso on the guitar due to his incredible knowledge of the fretboard, how best to apply that knowledge to the particular piece of music, and his physical capability of playing it. Same with Chris Squire on the bass.