Does feel and time trump the right notes?

[micguy]

Yes is the short answer. Playing something at the right time is more important than always hitting the "right" notes.

A couple weekends ago, I was doing a part in a song where I was using a lot of grace note/hammer ons to make a part rhythmically interesting. I was using the open string as the grace note to bounce off of, and the duration on that note was very short. Nobody noticed the the open string was a "wrong" note. It wasn't around long enough for anyone to get a sense of the pitch. Of course, I could have come up with a different part that used all "right" notes, but that part added a lot to the rhythm, so I kept it. SHHHHH!!!

I have also used third steps a few times - playing fretless, you want to do a 3 step transition between two notes that are a whole step apart. The solution? you play third steps - again, if the notes are short enough , it's 3 ascending notes, and nobody is gonna focus that much on pitch - the groove is what is most important some times, and if that means breaking a rule elsewhere, so be it.

I also posit that there really is no such thing as a wrong note - they are all timing errors. That tritone pitch you threw in by accident? That would be perfect the next tune, or next weekend - it's not a wrong note, it's just a timing error!

 

[micguy]

Here's a band playing the right notes but with egregious timing issues. You decide:

 

[misterCRUSH]

Here's a band playing the right notes but with egregious timing issues. You decide:

Whoah...good exampe! I choose time every day!! I do often play the right notes too haha...

 

[micguy]

Whoah...good exampe! I choose time every day!! I do often play the right notes too haha...

If you listen long enough, they do get to playing wrong notes (and plenty of them), but the beginning part where it's just timing....atrocities is so painful that most folks won't be listening long enough to get there.

The thing that baffles me about that is that someone decided it was worth sharing on Youtube for....some reason. Assuming they listened to it before uploading it (I could easily be wrong about that), I can't fathom what that reason would be. Subject of another thread, I guess.

I am also entertained by the sign above the band that declares "music" - I want to add a question mark to that sign.

 

[Abner]

...
I have also used third steps a few times - playing fretless, you want to do a 3 step transition between two notes that are a whole step apart. The solution? you play third steps - again, if the notes are short enough , it's 3 ascending notes, and nobody is gonna focus that much on pitch - the groove is what is most important some times, and if that means breaking a rule elsewhere, so be it.
...

I've done that (plus playing five distinct notes from, say, E to G, for example). More often than I care to remember. Perhaps it's more common with fretless players than I thought.

 

[Jefenator]

Yes.
But, it would take some pretty amazing feel to make up for messing up the song form - or going to the 4 chord before anyone else and not noticing.

 

[vindibona1]

I'm late to the party, but will add my 2¢ into this mix.
I regularly play in a worship group whose players can be different from week to week. There is one guy who shows up from time to time playing rhythm guitar. This guy is often out of the pocket being ahead of where everything is. His strums can be uneven and IT DRIVES ME NUTS! We usually have no percussion, so he is supposed to be following my tempo which I have to match the vocals (which aren't even either). But I've been trained to maintain the integrity of the ensemble, so in doing so this guitar player makes me want to chase him, and sometimes I do and hope that the vocals are going to follow the tempo that I'm laying down, but they're vocalists (ask me about singers in musical theater!!!!???). So my main thing is to follow the singers, regardless of them maintaining a constant.

So yeah... Faulty rhythm can be as disconcerting as faulty notes. But both count.
As my old trumpet mentor once said to me... "If you don't play in tune and don't play in time, nobody is going to want to play with you". Truer words are rarely spoken.

 

[J Wilson]

Why is there any discussion about playing the right notes in time? WTH am I missing here? Sure, in a losse jam, improvised sort of thing I suppose you can veer slightly and occasionally, but not much. On any kind of serious date (charts, fake book, a singer showcase with Nashville charts, or any good band on a great gig), ya got to have it all.

Or you can play disturbing Pink Floyd covers. Geez . . . .

 

[buldog5151bass]

I'm almost every case, yes.

 

[IamGroot]

Does feel and time trump the right notes?

Yes, according two jazz instructors, many fellow musicians and my own experience.

And, once a bad note is played, don't linger on it. Act like you meant it and most people wont know the difference. Worrying excessively about playing bad notes will screw up your time and feel.

 

[TrevorG]

While I can’t tell anyone how to play the bass I can talk about performing as, whether you’re an actor or a musician, that’s your priority. A audience’s experience is a journey. They are enticed by intrigue and excitement and tension. You’re the magician that makes the magic happen. Smoke and mirrors are all part of the game as are scales and arpeggios. Sondheim loved non singers in his musicals because they made the story more real by not singing like divas. People love it when something goes wrong in a show because it’s a new twist in a real story. If you make a mistake, remember people paid to hear that mistake so keep it entertaining or move on but never let it become something that’s about your own disappointment. People don’t pay to see that.

 

[vindibona1]

I like most of what you said. But as a musician who has done a fair amount of musical theater, there are mistakes and then there are MISTAKES. OK… So the actor misses a speaking a speaking line or word or forgets words in songs. And then there are many times when the singers skip entire lines and chaos ensues because the musicians and even the MD don’t know if the singer is going to find his way back or go on. What to do? More than once the musicians have saved the actor/singer’s bacon and somehow managed to avert a train wreck.

 

[js1]

Late to the thread, but...

Play some funny passing notes, play outside notes on fills - sure, time wins.

When it's time for you to define the chord, better get the right notes.

 

[consectaneus]

I watched a short series on youtube from a university music professor on this subject. He was coming from a double bass, jazz perspective but it's the same. He asked a number of professional jazz musicians in a sort of informal poll, "what is most important?" There were things like rhythm, timing, note choice etc. It was eye opening to me that feel and good time were the most important to them, over which notes the bassist played.

Not saying hitting right notes isn't important, but I take it that hitting four roots to the bar in good time and feel is better than clever walking arpeggios with bad time.

 

[vindibona1]

It is really super simple: When you play with others, you are not a bunch of individuals, but a SINGLE ENTITY THAT MUST PLAY WITH TOTAL RHYTHMIC CONGRUITY. Everybody hits wrong notes. 80% of them aren't even noticed by the audience. But if you're one nanosecod out EVERYONE will notice to various degrees.

I recall that during covid I was laying down tracks, played them all well, but some just didn't line up. With recording technology I could fix a lot of it. But a live performance with those out of pocket notes would have totally ruined the performance.

The one thing BIG thing that one of my trumpet mentors burned into my skull some years ago:
"IF YOU DON'T PLAY IN TUNE AND YOU DON'T PLAY IN TIME- NOBODY IS GOING TO WANT TO PLAY WITH YOU.

 

[Les Fret]

I have a bit of a problem with that statement I see so often used in clinics. A wrong note with good feel and timing still sounds wrong if you don’t resolve it right or play it in the wrong context.

Everything is equally important, it’s all about the musical context. You don’t have to choose between pitch or timing.

 

[Auer]

It's the difference between a musician and and an artist.

 

[vindibona1]

I have a bit of a problem with that statement I see so often used in clinics. A wrong note with good feel and timing still sounds wrong if you don’t resolve it right or play it in the wrong context.

Everything is equally important, it’s all about the musical context. You don’t have to choose between pitch or timing.

Perhaps you have never played in a large professional ensemble? Sometimes the word "artistry" has so much room for interpretation. Pitch and timing, while not mutually exclusive are critical elements in any ensemble. The more instruments/vocals in the ensemble the more important the congruence of both pitch and timing become. Obvousily SOLOS get some exception as they become the spotlight presentation that everything coalesces around.

The way I see it, and how I describe it to my students is that MUSIC IS A FLOWING STREAM. But importantly, the stream is already flowing before the first sound is made. Time-wise, metaphorically, you have to run along side the stream to match it as you enter without disturbing it, and need to stay within it until even after the music stops... and even a bit after. Its really no different for pitch. An good ensemble is not a bunch of folks playing the same music, but an amalgamation of several instruments/vocals whose goal (usually) is to become a single instrument made up of many.

And so, risking redundancy... IF YOU DON'T PLAY IN TUNE AND YOU DON'T PLAY *IN* TIME, NOBODY (at least nobody good) IS GOING TO WANT TO PLAY WITH YOU. The goal is musicality. And sometimes, while we intentionally break rules to be musical or even "artistic" we first must understand and be able to execute the two above caveats before you can go about doing whatever under the guise of artistry. JMO

 

[Auer]

If ones livelyhood is playing the right notes at the right time then it would make sense to advocate that type of behavior.

 

[vindibona1]

If ones livelyhood is playing the right notes at the right time then it would make sense to advocate that type of behavior.

For the sake of discussion, I think it goes far deeper than that. There are lots of people doing lots of things, doing a mediocre to crap job and still making a living at it.

A lot of folks define a "professional" as one who makes money doing what they do. And while when one makes money (IMO depending on how much of your livelihood is made doing it), I do not fully subscribe to that definition. My definition of a "professional" only tangentially includes money.

IMO a professional is one who can consistently maintaining a high level of quality, being able to maintain that quality and do a very good job on his worst day.