Does feel and time trump the right notes?

[misterCRUSH]

Saw Ron Carter and John Patitucci saying rhythm is number 1. Saw Pat Metheny take it further and say you could play the wrong notes with great feel and it would sound okay. So I put it to the test. I recorded myself playing a solo along with All the Things You Are (Ab) and soloed only using E major. I was focused exclusively on feel and rhythm and nothing else. I listened back, and sure there were some salty notes here and there but for the most part it sounded alright. Not saying I'm going to start soloing in the wrong key, but it did raise awareness on paying attention to feel. I felt this solo grooved harder than most others I have done. Now I just have to practice grooving with the right notes lol. I was wondering if anyone else had thoughts on this. Thanks. be well, BASS.

 

[scott sinner]

I don't know. That kinda seems like an ‘are the four wheels or the steering wheel more important to a car?” kinda question to me.

 

[Lobster11]

 

[chris_b]

Timing, groove, feel is everything. Locking with the drummer to make a unified rhythm section trumps nearly everything else.

As you say the wrong notes played with good time just about work, but the good notes played with bad time never work, ever.

 

[sean_on_bass]

It takes the priority, but ideally we want the full package.

 

[JonathanPDX]

Victor Wooten teaches this concept a lot at camps, workshops, and in his books. I've done a number of exercises with him over the years that reinforces the idea, from playing only "wrong" notes to playing the chromatic scale over changes to trying to improvise when the other musicians are intentionally shifting away from whatever tone center you try to settle into.

Personally, after 20+ years of camps and workshops and experience with the concept, this is my approach:

Every note has a color, or vibe, including the ones that aren't within the key/mode you are playing. Playing them confidently helps, but really knowing what they add is the secret. For example, play that E major scale, then slam a big fat C (or C major triad). It produces a very specific kind of tension and color both coming out of and resolving to the E-major scale. So, yes, you can totally play C over E major and make it work, but playing it with intention sounds a lot better than tripping over your cable and stumbling into it.

The reason most people sound lousy when they play "wrong" notes is because they change their groove, feel, and rhythm in response to it. Everything, even their body language, shouts "oops I didn't want to do that" followed by "I regret doing that" As a result, that note feels and sounds lousy to the audience compared to all the other notes that were played with strength and confidence. So, a good exercise (back to lessons from Vic) is to practice your chromatic scale and get comfortable with every note. Then, play at speeds where you have no control and are going to hit "out" notes regardless of your intent. Blaze up and down the fretboard, or close your eyes, lay your hand in a random spot, and start soloing from there regardless of how the first note aligns with the key.

Once you put those two things together you learn to accept and build around everything you play, how to add more colors outside the key center, and how to maintain your composure even when you play something you didn't intend to. We could go over resolutions, substitutions, and a million other tricks to make "out" playing feel good, but I think those two are the big ones.

 

[Wannabebass]

Victor Wooten teaches this concept a lot at camps, workshops, and in his books. I've done a number of exercises with him over the years that reinforces the idea, from playing only "wrong" notes to playing the chromatic scale over changes to trying to improvise when the other musicians are intentionally shifting away from whatever tone center you try to settle into.

Personally, after 20+ years of camps and workshops and experience with the concept, this is my approach:

Every note has a color, or vibe, including the ones that aren't within the key/mode you are playing. Playing them confidently helps, but really knowing what they add is the secret. For example, play that E major scale, then slam a big fat C (or C major triad). It produces a very specific kind of tension and color both coming out of and resolving to the E-major scale. So, yes, you can totally play C over E major and make it work, but playing it with intention sounds a lot better than tripping over your cable and stumbling into it.

The reason most people sound lousy when they play "wrong" notes is because they change their groove, feel, and rhythm in response to it. Everything, even their body language, shouts "oops I didn't want to do that" followed by "I regret doing that" As a result, that note feels and sounds lousy to the audience compared to all the other notes that were played with strength and confidence. So, a good exercise (back to lessons from Vic) is to practice your chromatic scale and get comfortable with every note. Then, play at speeds where you have no control and are going to hit "out" notes regardless of your intent. Blaze up and down the fretboard, or close your eyes, lay your hand in a random spot, and start soloing from there regardless of how the first note aligns with the key.

Once you put those two things together you learn to accept and build around everything you play, how to add more colors outside the key center, and how to maintain your composure even when you play something you didn't intend to. We could go over resolutions, substitutions, and a million other tricks to make "out" playing feel good, but I think those two are the big ones.

As someone who plays lots of wrong notes, this resonates with me from playing harp along with music on the radio - if it doesn't sound good, treat it as a passing note and keep going. If it sounds right, hang on it a bit!

 

[Slade N]

Time/feel is more important than pitch but the idea that notes dont matter is true to a point and not in all situations…also, some notes will be more wrong than others in a given situation

and

tone and octave are factors, the darker/more muted the top end of the bass is the more being off pitch can slide by with less notice, same with lower pitch being off vs higher pitch being off

 

[Joe Olson]

For me, time, tone and feel can make or break a band. Wrong notes are really no big deal if the other three are spot-on.

 

[Goatrope]

It’s hard to argue with a team of giants. I’d just add that context of the wrong note will either elevate or diminish it’s importance.

If you’re chugging along with the drummer and people are feeling it, the wrong note will usually pass unnoticed. If you’re in the middle of a passage where the chordal instruments are dropping out and you’re defining the chord, oops. Sore thumb.

 

[bassGtar]

Thats interesting, but you are talking about guys that have good odds of playing decent notes in whatever context they are in. It is easy for me to imagine that grooving with all the wrong notes could sound pretty terrible, so I’m going to assume they mean you better have the groove before you try to get to far out there on your note selection. Good post.

 

[Michael Stanley 2112]

Some of my favorite bass players are guys that "color outside the lines"; not necessarily just when they're "soloing", but also when holding down the groove. A "walking", fifties-style bass line with a II thrown in? Okay, unless it sounds completely amiss.

I've experienced it in my own playing/writing (the chorus in the song in my signature is a prime example [the C# chord]). If it feels good and doesn't sound really awful, why not?

 

[BassChuck]

Time is everything. You can play a wrong pitch instead of the correct pitch, but there is no such thing as a 'right note' at the wrong time.

 

[J Wilson]

Find yourself in any pro situation (for instance a record date), play some clams with a great groove when the red light comes on.

C-Ya! ! ! Don't call us and we won't call you.

 

[Harper]

A certain famous, outspoken bass instructor has all but made a second career out of finding posts on Facebook to argue with people about groove vs. notes.

 

[Lownote38]

A certain famous, outspoken bass instructor has all but made a second career out of finding posts on Facebook to argue with people about groove vs. notes.

Yep. If he were allowed to post here, this thread would be a mess. I do agree with him that learning the notes first is important. After some playing experience, the rhythm really takes care of itself. Both are necessary if you want to keep your gig.

 

[Killing Floor]

First of all, if you have ever had someone in the audience notice the notes you are playing, congrats, you’re Stu Hamm and you have a nice gig putting on bass clinics to bass players.
Ok, if you’re not Stu Hamm nobody who has ever seen you play live even notices if you’re in tune because you are a bassist. But if you derail the groove you empty the dance floor.

Look, not saying it’s ok to clam a lot. This is why you practice. But it’s worse to miss the beat because that wrecks the song. A missed note is a fill or some sweet glissando. A missed beat is your whole band is wonky.

Also don’t use Pat Metheny as an example because all his notes are wrong notes

 

[Harper]

Yep. If he were allowed to post here, this thread would be a mess. I do agree with him that learning the notes first is important. After some playing experience, the rhythm really takes care of itself. Both are necessary if you want to keep your gig.

Of course. But in the words of Kenny Powers, “I play real sports. Not trying to be the best at exercising.”

 

[Sithian]

It's fun to accidentally play something unintended and then to double down by doing it again. It may come across to band mates and audience as the hippest thing ever- Of course it was intentional!

Or just give the guitar player a dirty look when it happens and pass the blame

 

[JRA]

some music demands that we not lose the groove, above all else.

some music demands that we play the right note, above all else.

all the music i've ever played = demands that we do both, above all else!

but if this is one of those "forced choice" questions where only one of a binary is acceptable = both!