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Does it matter where it's made?

What has the incompetence of consumers got to to with the competence of manufacturers?


My point was that consumers are not very good judges of instrument quality, especially in a music store setting. I would add that most of the "bad" instruments people complain about just need to be set up with fresh strings and they would instantly become good instruments. This idea that you have to play a bunch of Fenders, for example, to find a good one is absurd.
 
Well, I have a personal set of values that guide my behavior (most of the time, who among us is perfect) and it is based on both learned philosophical beliefs and decades of personal experience (including international experience), so yes, I think I have a certain sense of human values that might be applied across cultures and (the philosophy part) time. It is not perfect, but neither is it uninformed.

You are certainly entitled to your opinion of me, as you have shared with the larger community.

My comments are in response to a post titled, "Does it matter where it's made", and I will reassert that basically people express their personal values through their activities as a consumer, so yes, it matters.

Different countries of origin have significantly different conditions for employees of production facilities. This is easily extrapolated to effect to final cost of the unit.

If a consumer's only concern is, 'what's best for me?' there is one answer; but if the question is any larger than self... the answer may well be different.

Well, its great to have a moral compass and philosophies and beliefs. But how do you reconcile the fact that as a consumer you have less than one millionth of a percent influence on the profits of a large foreign guitar manufacturer? If you have the notion that you'd be contributing to the problem or complicit in the suffering of foreign workers, well, that's a more idealistic than rational philosophy.

Not that there's anything inherently wrong with idealism. Frankly, the world needs more of it. But at the end of the day it doesn't matter if we buy the guitars or not. They will still be built. They will still be bought. And even if they aren't bought they will be paid for and destroyed in some corporate insurance settlement and then more will be built buy the same company or another just like it.

The origins of that human suffering you speak of go back before the time of cavemen. Those in power dominate the weak. This drives evolution and survival of the species. Modern day business and politics is just an extension of that nature. That notion of domination is endemic to societal hierarchies itself. I'm not saying it's right or wrong. Frankly, I wish we could evolve beyond it, but that's not going to happen for thousands of years, if ever. As things are now, if you could solve that problem, remove the desire to dominate in any way, the fabric of humanity would unravel into chaos.

The philosophical rabbit hole goes deep. Anyone going too far into it will end up mad as a hatter. That's why I personally think at the end of the day the wisest action is to buy a bass simply based upon the merits of the instrument and ignore the words on the headstock. If price is a factor, that should be considered too. But we simply are buying a tool for our hobbies, let's not pretend there is some virtue in our choice.
 
Does a US made instrument sound and feel five to ten times better than one made in the far east? And is the finish any better or worse?
Nope. More or less equal these days, if we're talking mass produced with CNC machines.
Chinese and far eastern makers are now producing products that are light years away from the ones they offered 25/30 years ago
This angle is all very dependent on which builders we're talking about.
If we're talking cheap crap from builders like Hondo, yeah they were cheap, but MIJ Fenders and some of those old Ibanez from 25/30 years ago were pretty damn good at a more modest price.

I've read a LOT of chest-pumping here on TB about US-made basses being the best built anywhere. I have my doubts, but I totally understand if someone were to buy a bass made in their country to support local jobs. I simply don't think a CNC machine cares what country it's in, so the difference in quality is a sum of it's parts.
A bass is either good or it's not.
 
CNC goes a long way to level out the fit of parts however finish sanding is still done by hand.
When you look at the thickness of the finish you can understand that imperfections in the wood can be filled in by finish.
We received an entry level Alembic Orion, went over it with a fine tooth comb looking for flaws- we couldn’t find one and at that price point I don’t expect to.
Some great stuff is coming out of Asia but as I said if you levelled the playing field cost wise would they still be a good deal?
My wife is Chinese, she can tell you stories about pay, working conditions and safety there that would make your hair curl.
 
Those in power dominate the weak. This drives evolution and survival of the species. Modern day business and politics is just an extension of that nature. That notion of domination is endemic to societal hierarchies itself. I'm not saying it's right or wrong. Frankly, I wish we could evolve beyond it....

That's why I personally think at the end of the day the wisest action is to buy a bass simply based upon the merits of the instrument and ignore the words on the headstock... But we simply are buying a tool for our hobbies, let's not pretend there is some virtue in our choice.

I totally agree. If we simply are buying a tool for our hobbies, let's not pretend there is no additional consequence in our choice.

Thanks!
 
[QUOTE
Well, I have a personal set of values that guide my behavior (most of the time, who among us is perfect) and it is based on both learned philosophical beliefs and decades of personal experience (including international experience), so yes, I think I have a certain sense of human values that might be applied across cultures and (the philosophy part) time. It is not perfect, but neither is it uninformed.

You are certainly entitled to your opinion of me, as you have shared with the larger community.

My comments are in response to a post titled, "Does it matter where it's made", and I will reassert that basically people express their personal values through their activities as a consumer, so yes, it matters.

Different countries of origin have significantly different conditions for employees of production facilities. This is easily extrapolated to effect to final cost of the unit.

If a consumer's only concern is, 'what's best for me?' there is one answer; but if the question is any larger than self... the answer may well be different.
Well said. There are really three separate "Does it matter where a bass is built" questions: Does it affect the quality? Does it matter to me, beyond issues of quality? Does it matter to the world? None are easy to answer definitively. Yes, a CNC machine doesn't care what country it's in, but one doesn't just buy a CNC machine and push the P bass button. The skill of the operator, the selected feed rates, the selection, sharpness and quality of the tools, and the time allocated can all greatly affect the quality of the finished product. This same factors follow the bass all the way through production, shipping and setup. This isn't necessarily a detriment to third world nations, as low wages and labor burden make it easier to spend more time to deliver a superior finished product IF economics make that feasible.

The second and third questions are extremely complicated, without clearcut right and wrong answers. Probably no two thinking individuals have exactly the same weighting for every possible factor. As to whether that changes the world, of course it does - but in a very tiny measure. So one has to understand that these decisions are for one's own conscience and not rail because everyone doesn't see things the same.

Today is in some ways analogous to the Japanese guitar explosion of the '60s through '80s. At first, their instruments were mostly crap, because even highly experienced luthiers really only understood how to make instruments for Japan's conditions, and the sudden tsunami of demand meant that most instruments were built in factories and by employees new to string instrument manufacture. But very quickly they learned to make quality instruments often rivaling American and European competitors'. CNC equipment and an additional half century's collective knowledge make this rise much more rapid today. And just as Japan became a kind of super-Western nation in manufacturing and thus forced America and Western Europe to step up our game, so too are China, South Korea and Indonesia moving toward equality. So no matter how one feels about geopolitics, we have another Golden Age.
 
It's America trying to keep up with the rest of the world IMO. They cannot keep even with off shore brands in both price and quality. My Revered blew away Fender in quality at half the cost. My new LTD is off the hook for around $700 and nicer than my former legendary pre Gibson Tobias. The off shore Squier's out sold it's American counterparts...

There is no best anymore. The playing ground is completely level.
 
I don’t know how one could accurately label one bass as being “10x better” (or not) than another bass.

Place of origin matters to me because I like knowing my instrument was made by someone who was paid a living wage. To me it’s like buying lunch at a local place where a burger is more expensive than a chain restaurant. I’m not concerned with whether or not the quality of the food is directly proportional to the increase in cost. If I enjoy it more and it feels like a better way to spend my money, I’m good.

I also don’t care one bit what anyone else buys/plays.
 
There is this thing known as "the law of diminishing returns". Basically it says as you start paying more and more for whatever you're buying, you get less and less improvement per price increase. Yes a bass that costs $200 is possibly twice as good as one that costs $100. A $400 bass though will not "normally" be twice as good, but it will be better. An $800 bass will probably be a bit better than a $400 bass but the question arises is it really twice the price better? - probably not. By the time you get into the $1600 basses, you'll have a hard time finding a bad one, but you could probably get one that is "almost as good" for that $800 price range.

Now perhaps I am not the best person to judge as the only two 4-string basses I've ever owned were both Made in the USA Fender Jazz Basses. I bought my 1965 Fender Jazz Bass used in 1966. Used it throughout high school, college, and toured with it in the early 70's playing 5-nights a week, 50-weeks a year for 3-years. I got to know that feel and sound of that bass really well. Then in 1976 our house was burglarized and all my music gear was stolen including my '65 Jazz bass and my $1,000+ Standel piggy-back bass amp.

This was a time in my life where we had young kids and replacing a bass was a tough thing to do. That didn't stop me from searching though. Bad news was that none of the Made in the US Jazz basses I tried had the same feel to the neck - not even close. Sound was good but in most cases neck was crap (for me that is). Finally in 1985 I found a maple-necked '82/'83 Olympic White Fender Jazz Bass that had the same feel as my '65 did and I bought it.

Up until then, I couldn't find anything that came close to the neck I had on my '65. I was working part-time at a music store when I found it, and I had tried every bass they had in the place (well over 200). My "vintage" neck wasn't to be found. I could have bought some really nice basses for not much money, but none of them had the feature - that vintage neck that I demanded (60's shallow C-shape with 7.25" radius). I held out for that specific feature, finally found it, and have played that bass now for 40-years. In my opinion, it was/is much better than any other bass made anywhere...at least for me. You are welcome to send me basses to try out if you want to try to change my mind. ;)

Now in about 2009 I was playing with a group that was playing songs that really called for 5-string. I was down-tuning the E-string on my Fender Jazz and it seemed we never played two songs together that needed me to be tuned to D or Db, but always put a standard tuning song in between them. So I started looking for a 5-string.

First thought was to check out the Ibanez 5-strings because they made quality instruments, they were known for narrow necks (similar to my jazz that I am so used to), and I thought I could get a decent one for ~$400. Looked like I could get a Fender MIM for around $600 then, but I tried one out at a music store and it was terribly uncomfortable for me to play. The edges of the neck were sharp and the neck was pretty flat. I mentioned on the Eden forum (when it was still around) that I was looking for a 5-string and had about $400 in my budget for it.

One of the old timers on the forum answered back and said I should look at the Rogue 5-string. He said the price was only about $200. He said he had three of their passes including their violin bass and that they were far better than their price. So I took him at his word and ordered a Rogue LX405 Pro, 5-string. This is before their Pro II or Pro III and was made in Korea, as opposed to China.

When I received the bass, I was quite surprised. The fit and finish is superb and cosmetically it is excellent. It has a bolt-on neck with 6 screws and the truss rod is accessible under a cover in the headstock. I've used the truss rod once, after my 3,000 mile move from Virginia to Washington state. That one adjustment got it right back to the set-up and intonation I'd had in VA.

It can be used in either active or passive mode, but just pulling up the volume knob or pushing it back in place. it has a Jazz-Bass type bar pickup in the neck position and a MusicMan-style double pickup (soapbar-type) in the bridge position. In passive mode only the volume and the pick-up blend controls work. In active mode the bass and treble controls also work. I like it a little bit better in active mode with a slight adjustment on the bass and treble, but I also like the sound in passive with the selector blend turned a little bit towards the neck pickup.

It's body is made from basswood with a flamed maple top and mine is a transparent tobacco sunburst. Basswood is a pretty soft wood so you need to be a little careful with it, but I am very careful with my basses, so that wasn't a problem. Because it uses basswood and only a flamed maple top, it's about 2-lbs. lighter than my 4 string Jazz and I just use a standard width nylon strap on it instead of the 3½" leather strap I use on my Jazz. The neck feels good to me across the 5-strings even though it has a 12" radius which is a LOT flatter than my 4-string. Still, it feels fine across the 5 strings. The rosewood fretboard has Mother-of-Pear dots, plus there are white dots on the side of the neck. So this was a real winner for me and I think I paid all of $219 for it.

Since their manufacturing moved to China, quality control has suffered. They are still a good design but not all of them have the superb fit and finish that mine does. Unfortunately, this is not unusual in Chinese bass factories. Some of the same models are great and some of them are not. Good news is that you can get one in your hands at Guitar Center and inspect it and play it before you buy it. Word of warning though, they don't know which controls do what and Rogue has no website. The top front control is volume and pulls and pushes to switch back and forth from active to passive. The bottom two are you bass and treble EQ knobs and they only work in active mode (don't work at all in passive mode). Most of the online shops carry it and have a 30 to 45-day return so if you get an unsatisfactory one you can return it for exchange or refund.

Fit and finish in mine is easily in the range of basses selling for $699+ And I can get a decent sound out of it in both passive and active modes. I'm real happy with mine even though I don't use it very often. I love the way my maple-necked Fender Jazz sounds and plays, so the Rogue is not going to replace that anytime in the future. Still, I will pull it out when I need to use a 5-string with absolutely no apologies. It sounds good, plays well, and looks good to boot!

Here's a shot of front and back:
414338731.jpg
414338732.jpg
 
I don’t know how one could accurately label one bass as being “10x better” (or not) than another bass.

Place of origin matters to me because I like knowing my instrument was made by someone who was paid a living wage. To me it’s like buying lunch at a local place where a burger is more expensive than a chain restaurant. I’m not concerned with whether or not the quality of the food is directly proportional to the increase in cost. If I enjoy it more and it feels like a better way to spend my money, I’m good.

I also don’t care one bit what anyone else buys/plays.

In particular, which places of origin do you know, that provide a living wage?
 
Yes and no. Just as water boils at the same temperature around the globe, CNC machines work the same way no matter where they are located. That said, the other factors involved in production could/would vary depending on many issues. Working conditions, labor unions, the level of experience of the workers, QC, managemental goals (quality versus quantity), cost of parts, et cetera. My personal experience with domestic (USA) versus imported goods is that imports are a decent value, but the US made instruments have more character. For the record, the imports I own are a Fender Modern Player Telecaster (the dual humbucker model based on an early '70's Tele) from China, a CAR '83 MIJ P bass (one of the first from Fender Japan), a Hohner P/J FL Professional, and a late '60's or early '70's Prestige violin bass. The Hohner is by far the most impressive of the bunch as it could take on any fretless and hold its own. The best $102.50 I ever spent. I bought it at Building 19 who had bought out the inventory of a pawn shop/music store. Everything was half price and the tag was $205.
 
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Place of origin matters to me because I like knowing my instrument was made by someone who was paid a living wage. To me it’s like buying lunch at a local place where a burger is more expensive than a chain restaurant. I’m not concerned with whether or not the quality of the food is directly proportional to the increase in cost. If I enjoy it more and it feels like a better way to spend my money, I’m good.

I also don’t care one bit what anyone else buys/plays.
This is really the crux of the matter for a few but does everyone have the money to support that attitude? I suspect not so will buy on quality sound and feel as evidenced by the preceding posts.
Workers can be trained and quality can be guaranteed but what about the quality of life for the people producing them? Cort are the largest producer of guitars in the world and manufacture for many other brands.

These workers have a voice but imagine what things might be like for workers in Chinese factories.
I'm highlighting this to show the ethical issues which many don't give a thought to.
 
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Does it matter where it's made?
not any more.

my chinese-made pieces are far better instruments than my pricey fender and my pricey custom-made. they are superior in every way. disclosure: i had to put a little time and a little money (parts) into them to make them 'superior'.

also, i have better luck than the next person. :D

I started buying Fenders in the early 70's. Back then even American made Fenders were hit and miss. I remember seeing wide gaps in the neck pocket. Bridges mounted slightly off, etc. Then I bought an Ibanez Roadstar II in 1981 and it was outstanding on QA. I used that bass until the 2000's and started buying Ibanez and Cort lefty's. They were pretty good quality. By 2015 the quality of Indonesian basses was excellent.

The more you pay the better quality bass you're going to get. But the $300-$600 dollar basses are getting pretty good nowadays. I've played most of my entire life and I don't have a stigma about owning an 'economy' bass. I just bought a Sterling by Music Man SUB Ray4 lefty and the quality is excellent. I love the bass so much that in February I'm buying a second SBMM lefty, in a tobacco vintage sunburst with maple neck. Long story short, if you need a good economy bass, don't feel embarrassed to play with one. Get it properly set up and practice your Heine off.
 
I disagree somewhat. I worked in a music store for 10 years and I am convinced most people can not properly judge an instrument in a store. The main criteria people use to judge is low action and fresh strings. If an otherwise great guitar/bass is not properly set up and has old dead strings, most people will label it a dog and move on.
2 things....

1) I specifically stated "if you cannot try it before you buy it, it's a crap shoot". A bass sitting in a music store waiting to be tried out is a different thing altogether, by definition.

2) A otherwise great guitar/bass that's improperly set up and has dead strings IS a dog, even if it's from the "Custom Shop". Sure, you can "undog" it, but until it's "undogged", it's still a dog.
 
This is really the crux of the matter for a few but does everyone have the money to support that attitude? I suspect not so will buy on quality sound and feel as evidenced by the preceding posts.
Workers can be trained and quality can be guaranteed but what about the quality of life for the people producing them? Cort are the largest producer of guitars in the world and manufacture for many other brands.

These workers have a voice but imagine what things might be like for workers in Chinese factories.
I'm highlighting this to show the ethical issues which many don't give a thought to.

In all fairness, this is more than 10 years ago. I imagine (and hope) conditions have changed since then.
 
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