Does it REALLY make a difference?

[delta7fred]

I must be in the minority. When I’m playing in a band setting, I for one, can’t hear the difference between amp brands for the most part. Nor do I hear much of a difference between scale length of basses. I can hear the difference between Rotosounds and Chromes at lower volumes. But when you’re pushing it ,the difference diminishes. Rosewood and Maple boards? You’re joking, right?. Stock picks vs after market? Nope. These all might make a difference if you’re sitting in your bedroom , playing along at low volume to your favorite tunes but not in the real world. Not to me anyways.

I was discussing this on Saturday night with the BL/guitarist of a band that I sub in.

He is an avid tube amp and vintage speaker fan but for gigging he uses a modern solid state combo because as he says "with an ex punk drummer and a thundering bass guitar I defy anyone to tell the difference."

He owns several tube amps and always uses one when recording but for gigging size, weight and convenience trump tube tone every time.

 

[Downunderwonder]

No doubt. I'm specifically talking about working cover bands playing at bars that cater to that kind of audience. I would add that the place where this band was playing was packed to the point that you couldn't get to the bar or the bathroom without having to wade through a sea of humanity. And this band was getting paid good money. Not only that, but this band plays to crowds like this every weekend, especially during the summer. I would LOVE to have another gig like this. You know, sometimes people tell me that I don't respect my audience because I don't think their music appreciation is sophisticated enough to notice some of the things we've been talking about in this thread. It isn't a matter of respect as much as it is one of observation and years and years of experience. I respect my audience for showing up, enjoying themselves and appreciating the music that has been selected for them, not to mention helping out my wallet at the end the night. But the fact is the vast majority of them don't notice things that we as musicians care about. They don't care about the subtle difference in our pickup choices, or the exotic woods our basses are handcrafted from, or how often we change strings. They care about dancing, having a few drinks and listening to music they're familiar with. That's it. If a band can get those three things happening, little else matters.

It's a classic case of the whole being far greater than the sum of its parts. Some of those parts can even be defective and still it doesn't matter to the sum! Doesn't mean we shouldn't bother to seek great tone.

 

[N4860]

No doubt. I'm specifically talking about working cover bands playing at bars that cater to that kind of audience. I would add that the place where this band was playing was packed to the point that you couldn't get to the bar or the bathroom without having to wade through a sea of humanity. And this band was getting paid good money. Not only that, but this band plays to crowds like this every weekend, especially during the summer. I would LOVE to have another gig like this. You know, sometimes people tell me that I don't respect my audience because I don't think their music appreciation is sophisticated enough to notice some of the things we've been talking about in this thread. It isn't a matter of respect as much as it is one of observation and years and years of experience. I respect my audience for showing up, enjoying themselves and appreciating the music that has been selected for them, not to mention helping out my wallet at the end the night. But the fact is the vast majority of them don't notice things that we as musicians care about. They don't care about the subtle difference in our pickup choices, or the exotic woods our basses are handcrafted from, or how often we change strings. They care about dancing, having a few drinks and listening to music they're familiar with. That's it. If a band can get those three things happening, little else matters.

I agree with all of that as well. My only thing that I would add to all of this is that a lot of the choices that we as players make contributes to the feel of how we play. This could be the feel of the neck or weight of the body due to certain wood, the feel of nice new strings, etc. Its probably not something the average audience member is going to necessarily notice, but as a player, maybe it makes you feel better or play better as a result which may contribute to a better experience for the audience or the other band members. I can say for sure that the biggest improvement in my live playing experience has been finding a bass that feels amazing to play and an amp that sits in the mix perfectly. That's not to say that my previous bass didn't sound good, it just didn't feel near as good as my current player. And I had a good rig before which sounded more than fine through the FOH, but on stage, my current rig definitely sounds better on stage and the rest of the band feels the same way so in some way I feel like that matters for something. At the very least, it all makes me very happy which is why I play in the first place.

 

[bbh]

It's a classic case of the whole being far greater than the sum of its parts. Some of those parts can even be defective and still it doesn't matter to the sum! Doesn't mean we shouldn't bother to seek great tone.

Yes. Look at Chris Squire from Yes. He played for years with one busted pickup and one good. This is how he got the old sound. Can’t remember where I read that but it’s out there.

 

[hbarcat]

Some of the things on your list don't make any difference in sound. Others have a small affect. Some things make an enormous difference.

Trivial or no difference: fretboard material, scale length, pick thickness.

Minor difference: String brand, pick versus fingers, pickup brand.

Major difference: string type, pickup type, Amp make and model, preamp settings (EQ), playing technique.



A few weeks ago, I played an open mic where the backline was provided, but I brought my own amp anyway. When it was my turn to play, the first bass player offered to let me try his epiphone violin bass (with flats) with his Fender combo amp. I played a couple of songs using his setup and it was a completely different sound than what I'm used to. Very vintage and thumpy. Lots of people like that sound but it's not for me.

I then switched to my own bass, which has the EMG Geezer PJ set and DR hi beam strings. It made an enormous difference that even the non musician patrons could hear. Very aggressive with pronounced midrange.

After a break, I switched to my own amp, which is an Ampeg SVT3 Pro and that itself was a huge change in sound. Usually, I gig with a Mesa M2000 amp, which is yet another fundamentally different tone - extremely aggressive and suited toward harder rock.

Probably, audience members can't tell the difference in amps, but it's very easy for me because of decades of experience with numerous amps (like most older gigging musicians have).

 

[s0c9]

Probably, audience members can't tell the difference in amps, but it's very easy for me because of decades of experience with numerous amps (like most older gigging musicians have).

Right, but that begs the question.. are you playing for you, or your audience?
If you have full PA support + subs (most venues I play have that) then the backline difference is often lost between amp, FOH and PA.
Mixing bass and kick is one of the harder things for most FOH guys to get down. There's subtle differences. Then to bring out the tone of the bass + amp (etc) across the freq spectrum is an additional challenge.
As was mentioned above, it's the sum of the parts the punters notice and appreciate, not the small differences in bass tone.
But they will notice if it sounds bad or you play wrong notes MUCH FASTER!

 

[hbarcat]

Right, but that begs the question.. are you playing for you, or your audience?
If you have full PA support + subs (most venues I play have that) then the backline difference is often lost between amp, FOH and PA.
Mixing bass and kick is one of the harder things for most FOH guys to get down. There's subtle differences. Then to bring out the tone of the bass + amp (etc) across the freq spectrum is an additional challenge.
As was mentioned above, it's the sum of the parts the punters notice and appreciate, not the small differences in bass tone.
But they will notice if it sounds bad or you play wrong notes MUCH FASTER!

You're absolutely right to bring this up. My #1 priority when playing live is to always give the audience the best possible experience. I've been running sound as long as I've been playing bass and a large part of my gigs are with my own PA.

I had good mentors when first starting out and learned how to use EQ to make each instrument "sit in the mix", giving up certain frequency bands with the electric bass to make room for other instruments, particularly the kick drum.

If you heard my stage amp sound all by itself, you might think it was thin and lacking the big, punchy bottom end that is what most people expect from a modern bass sound. That's because I roll off everything below 75 Hz and also notch out a section of midrange to give the guitars and snare more space. Played with the rest of the band, the audiencence hears clean, well balanced sound. I would be embarrassed if people complained of boomy or muddy bass or that an I instrument was lost in the mix and hard to hear.

In my previous example at the open mic, the PA was only carrying the vocals and the stage amps had to carry the instruments to the room. The provided bass amp had very crude EQ (3 knobs only - bass, mid, treble) so I just ran it flat. The other bass player had the bass and treble knobs cranked up and the mids turned down, not realizing how that might sound out in the room.

 

[Zbysek]

I must be in the minority. When I’m playing in a band setting, I for one, can’t hear the difference between amp brands for the most part. Nor do I hear much of a difference between scale length of basses. I can hear the difference between Rotosounds and Chromes at lower volumes. But when you’re pushing it ,the difference diminishes. Rosewood and Maple boards? You’re joking, right?. Stock picks vs after market? Nope. These all might make a difference if you’re sitting in your bedroom , playing along at low volume to your favorite tunes but not in the real world. Not to me anyways.

Good for you! You can buy the cheapest combo amp out there and be done with it.

Those of us who think they can hear a difference between different amp brands will probably have to invest much more to feel satisfied...

 

[murph7489]

Indirectly yes..mostly the impact is for the bass player..for example if i like the tone I'm getting and the bass I'm playing feels good to me, I'm going to play better and that is a fact but only applies to myself as I cannot judge how other bass players relate to that. Having said that, if I play better and things are sounding good to me chances are that will have an impact on the audience...

 

[DeepFriedBass]

I feel like each piece of equipment is very well heard and distinguishable from the next in a loud band environment. Even just turning one cab can significantly alter the way the sound as a whole is presented to the ears.

Every amp, cab, bass, and effect pedal will suddenly put your bass Into a different sonic realm and thus will occupy a different area in the mix.

Some people seem to become more aware of this over time and others will feel it is increasingly unimportant.

I play so much more dynamically, creatively, and just way better the richer and more musical the tone is.

 

[Dan Sheets]

I must be in the minority. When I’m playing in a band setting, I for one, can’t hear the difference between amp brands for the most part. Nor do I hear much of a difference between scale length of basses. I can hear the difference between Rotosounds and Chromes at lower volumes. But when you’re pushing it ,the difference diminishes. Rosewood and Maple boards? You’re joking, right?. Stock picks vs after market? Nope. These all might make a difference if you’re sitting in your bedroom , playing along at low volume to your favorite tunes but not in the real world. Not to me anyways.

Exactly. In the real world no one hears nor cares. (Except other musicians - but they don't count)

 

[JimmyM]

Exactly. In the real world no one hears nor cares. (Except other musicians - but they don't count)

Until they offer to pay you for playing with them. Which they might.

 

[hennessybass]

Exactly. In the real world no one hears nor cares. (Except other musicians - but they don't count)

For me, The number one thing that matters is what I hear and care about, and so all that stuff matters to me. When I'm playing (at home or on a show), I can sure tell the difference between strings, and RW vs Maple, and one amp or cab vs a different amp or cab.

Sometimes when guys say "I can't hear a difference" I think - you're not listening hard enough.
I think a bigger section of the audience can hear a difference, and do they care - some do, some don't, sure - but I think folks are paying attention. I almost always have audience members come talk to me about my bass or what amp I'm using, or what strings I use... almost every show. Someone is paying attention.

There are many, many different kinds of musical situations in the "real world" and I think lots of folks actually do care about what kind of gear you are using, what bass you are playing.

Many BL are very conscious of the image of the band. Like an outlaw country band might not want you to show up with a coffee-table 6 string bass - even if you have that passive switch and P bass pick up on it and it sounds exactly like a P.
I've heard from friends in the P&W community that the gear you show up with is extremely important and folks are paying attention.
I've had a producer tell me that he wanted a P bass - and reluctantly recorded my jazz bass.
I've been told that you simply can not play modern Nashville country unless you have a 5 string.
I've been hired on gigs and been told essentially no pedal boards for bass players.

Lots of folks are paying attention.

 

[StatesideRambler]

Sometimes when guys say "I can't hear a difference" I think - you're not listening hard enough.

If we have to listen that carefully to discern a difference then the audience, who are out to have some fun, ain’t gonna notice at all. In a recording studio, yes; in a bar or at a county fair or at a wedding reception? Nope.

 

[hennessybass]

If we have to listen that carefully to discern a difference then the audience, who are out to have some fun, ain’t gonna notice at all. In a recording studio, yes; in a bar or at a county fair or at a wedding reception? Nope.

I guess. The OP said that when HE was playing in a band setting, HE can't hear that stuff. I guess I was just saying that I can - but I really work at it. Like if I change strings, I actively listen to how they sound live and in the mix so I can decide if those are the strings I want to be using.

When I'm out to have some fun as an audience member, I listen for that stuff too -- because it's fun for me.

Audiences are diverse and I suspect more sophisticated than some people give them credit for. Some people are there for the beer, some are there to meet chicks, some are there for the tunes, and some are there to geek out on sounds and players. No need IMO to play to the lowest common denominator. If you spend time to really dial in your sound and listen to the thing that make a difference, the guy that is just there to have a few drinks and pick up chicks can still do that... but you also engage with the audience member who might be there to check out what some local bass players are doing.

 

[steveksux]

When my lower strap button pulled out/stripped, I had it fixed. They put a small dowel rod in there to provide wood for the screw to bite into.

I made sure he used a good "tone wood" instead of a regular dowel! Can't be too careful!

Randy

 

[JimmyM]

When my lower strap button pulled out/stripped, I had it fixed. They put a small dowel rod in there to provide wood for the screw to bite into.

I made sure he used a good "tone wood" instead of a regular dowel! Can't be too careful!

Randy

And now I totally get why the bass that I plugged stripped holes with pieces of popsicle sticks never sounded the same afterward!

From now on, I'm only going to buy artisan popsicle sticks made of the finest void-free cocobolo on the market. Sure, they're $500 per stick, but it sure beats using cheapo sticks that come free with a popsicle, even though I do like popsicles.

 

[LiquidMidnight]

Think of music as a gestalt, not a series of individual pieces that exist in isolation. I can tell the difference between a Rosewood and Maple fretboard (in a good mix, i.e,. the sound engineer mixes so the actual timbre of the instrument comes through), but that's not going to be a significant choice I'm going to make for a gig. A passive Precision strung with flats versus a Spector loaded with EMGS and a Hazlab strung with steel rounds does have a pretty big impact on sound. I will be making a conscious and deliberate decision about what I choose there based upon the gig. Can the audience tell? They'll be listening to the vibe of the music, and those two basses and string types are definitely going to have a choice on the vibe.

 

[byacey]

Far too many bassists evaluate their tone too close to the speaker, rather than from the perspective of a listener in the audience. What you hear 4 feet from the cabinet is VERY different than what is heard 40 feet away. I doubt anyone would be able to tell any difference in tone between a rosewood and maple fingerboard from 40 feet away in a blind listening test; likewise with a 32" scale length, and a 34".

Many of these details that we as musicians agonize over, are really an inconsequential security blanket, of sorts.

 

[lfmn16]

I treat every gig I do like I'm playing with the greatest musicians in the world, I work hard to give the greatest sounds I possibly can for the best possible listening experience, I don't do lowest common denominators, and even if I use something cheap, it's excellent cheap. That said, there are times I can't have everything, but I try, and IMHO not trying is weak sauce.

+1

IMHO, Professionals set their own standards. They don’t choose equipment based on what the audience will “notice.”