Does low AC power kill amps?

[Jim C]

The combination of a 20A breaker and a very long run of 14 ga. wire would explain it, and being a garage I'd bet dimes to dollars that's what he has. I'd bet a lot more that there's no ground rod and distribution box at the garage, and that the nearest ground is at the service entrance. Now, how much do you want to bet said garage has a concrete floor and the outlets are not GFCI, which, combined with the long distance to the ground, makes this not only a fire hazard but an electrocution hazard as well?
OP, I wouldn't use this place again.

Of course, we are assuming that a ground wire even exists and that it is tied in correctly at the panel!
In the MD / DC aree the upgrade to a ground rod has been reasonably recent and that a water pipe ground (before the shutoff) was code for many (like 50) years.

When you really think about this, there could be 100 things that make this install wrong and dangerous, and really only 1 right way to meet code.

That old philosophy that if it's lasted this long it must be fine is also consistent with why houses catch on fire when a new hair dryer, space heater, or microwave gets introduced.

 

[Electricblue]

Muzikman, is this the drummer's dad?

 

[billfitzmaurice]

In the MD / DC aree the upgrade to a ground rod has been reasonably recent and that a water pipe ground (before the shutoff) was code for many (like 50) years.

There's nothing at all wrong with a water pipe ground, so long as it's metal pipe. The code change coincided with the widespread adoption of plastic pipe.

Of course, we are assuming that a ground wire even exists and that it is tied in correctly at the panel!

It doesn't matter if it's there or not, with a long enough cable run to ground the path of least resistance will still be to a concrete or dirt floor, especially if damp. For the same reason if someone wants you to play outdoors and there isn't a service box and ground rod at the setup area, turn around and go home. Typically you'll find a 50 foot extension cord, plugged in to a garage outlet, and there may be another 50 feet of wire between that outlet and the service entrance ground. That's an electrocution waiting to happen. Plus they expect the whole band to run off that one cord, PA included.

 

[jnewmark]

What about outside gigs powered by portable generators? I once played on a football field that had two big , gas powered Honda generators. I always wondered how safe that really was.

 

[billfitzmaurice]

What about outside gigs powered by portable generators? I once played on a football field that had two big , gas powered Honda generators. I always wondered how safe that really was.

If there's no ground of the generator output then there's no shock hazard. But there's also no shunting of system noise to ground. If the generator is grounded and your gear is 50 feet or less from that ground point you're probably OK, though GFCI is still a requirement.

 

[rpsands]

Anecdotal, but my MB500's power section died while on generator power. Dead dead. No idea why though.

 

[stevemac]

Aluminum is not as bad as it used to be, its generally pretty good though it has a bad reputation to live down in some parts. The main property that makes it different from copper is that it does not carry the same current.

I'm not technically an electrical engineer but have the education and experience to do the job (which is what I do).

I dont come across something like that very often because I dont do residential and my work is much better than that

It does sound like the cable may be inappropriately sized and you are getting severe voltage drop, that would be my first guess. The breaker/fuse should be tripping but its not. That situation is very dangerous for reasons of overheating and resulting fire. Your drummer should be very concerned. Is the condition localized to the garage? The problem may extend back to the house also.

edit: to answer your original question, bad power will reduce your equipments lifespan considerably in most cases. I think pure resistive loads will be ok but electronics will suffer.

 

[billfitzmaurice]

Aluminum is not as bad as it used to be, its generally pretty good though it has a bad reputation to live down in some parts. The main property that makes it different from copper is that it does not carry the same current.

Aluminum was removed from branch circuit use because its rate of thermal expansion and tendency to corrode resulted in loosening of the connection with outlet lugs, resulting in heat, then fire.

 

[MuzikMan]

This is good stuff guys. I feel like you are doing a good public service by talking about this. What may seem obvious to you might not to everyone. To be honest I never put any thought into the danger of the situation. Again, thank you.

 

[klyph]

We had the service on my parents' house (built in the 50's) expanded to 200 amp from 100 several years ago, mostly to accomidate several 3 hp woodworking tools+ a 60 gal compressor. This entailed installing a new ground rod (water pipe is now a no-no in Mass. code) and redoing the street pole-to-house connect. Cost was 2K$ with a licensed master electrician FRIEND doing the ground work FREE. If the house wiring is also faulty (likely), the cost balloons to pay an apprentice to crawl around in your attic and basement for a day or two. This is the most likely reason to ignore shortcomings, but as already stated in this thread, it is penny wise-pound foolish IN THE EXTREME to do so. It ain't cheap (the box alone was $400) but still WAY cheaper than a house fire!

 

[will33]

Lot's of good info in this thread, to the point it should be required reading. Our gig rig always has a little plug in outlet tester, a voltmeter and enough 15A power strips so nothing is plugged straight into the wall and we need a minimum if 2 separate circuits. 1 for PA rack (small/medium power amps), one for backline (2 amps), any more gear than that requires a 3rd circuit. Everything doesn't check good, we don't play. Your issue is way beyond that but that's some basic things you can do to protect yourself. The point about the ground rod is important. Electricity always takes the path of least resistance which may be through you if the ground rod is on the other end if the property.

 

[JdoubleH]

... The breaker/fuse should be tripping but its not.

Scarier yet would be if the breaker was tripping frequently due to undersized wire, so the homeowner put in a bigger beaker.

I've seen that before and worse. My first house had that and at least one retrofit ground (for an outlet supplying a space heater in the basement) clamped to the gas line going to the water heater. It also had zip cord lamp extension cords in the walls in the ' finished' basement supplying outlets and light sockets. Apparently 99-cent-store extension cords are cheaper than romex. Who knew? Speaking of cheap, I swear every fixture and bracket in that house requiring screws had at least one phillips and flat head screw.

Joe Six Pack scares me.

Edit: worst of all, the home inspector failed to catch any if it, or the fact that all of the circuits supplying all of the original 1940's non-grounded outlets and light fixtures with their 1940's woven cloth and rubber insulated wiring were on 20 amp breakers in the modern 200 amp panel.

Oh yeah, concrete floor in the basement too. Frequently wet due to improperly wet-vented washer stand pipe which regularly overflowed.

House inspectors who fail to catch this crap scare me too.

 

[Jim C]

The assumption was that breaker sizing, wire sizing, grounding, and other pertinent factors were never observed during initial construction let alone by others

 

[Electricblue]

If you are not supplying enough power to your amp, that means the amp won't put out as much power.

This could lead to underpowering your cabs, therefore blowing them

 

[selftitled907]

Truth
My little residential remodeling team does about $3M a year and I pull many of the electrical permits.
No one can tell you how dangerous a condition might be without an inspection although the low votage scenario does bring up a good possibility of an overload condition

I'm curious as to how the voltage can get so low without the breaker tripping and would be most afraid that the breaker is too large for the branch wiring.
If it really is too much trouble to spend $100 - 200 for a pro to come in for a quick look, at least run an extension cord to another outlet that is connected to a different breaker; easy way to check is to trun off breakers until the garage outlet is off and another outlet still works
Spilt the band load so that approx half the power is being drawn from the two sources.
Smoke detectors and a fire extinguisher sound like the perfect birthday / Christmas presents; would hate for this too go badly for your friend

I'm a Certified Electrician in Alaska and I couldnt agree more with what JimC had to say here. If you have enough PA gear I would even consider doing what was said above....for the PA alone and then again for the amps....If the garage wasnt "wired to code", that means you have NO idea whats in the wall....or what condition the wire is actually in. I personally would skip out on using the garage circuit altogether, as well as pull in 2 extension cords both from there own breakers. 3 even if you all use loads of gear. Maybe even skip out on any "vanity" crap you guys might/might not like hooking up during rehearsals. Good luck and be safe =).

-Gabe

 

[MuzikMan]

For the record I am using a Carvin DCM1540L power amp with an Allen & Heath 4 channel mixer for my bass and the keyboard player. We are still holding auditions for guitar but of course they bring a tube combo amp. The vocals are run through another Allen & Heath 4 channel mixer into a pair of EV ZXA1 powered speakers.

The drummer has several kits, including an electronic kit. We can use this with the EV ZXA1's with a mixer in a bedroom volume setup. My bass and the keys can be mixed in without amps and the vocals can be heard without amplification. We can do this anywhere location-wise and I actually prefer it sonically for practice because it is low volume and we can easily hear everything. Ironicaly it is the drummer who isn't crazy about it because of the cramped nature of his electronic kit. Still, he is a reasonable person and I think I can convince him to go back to that setup for practice.

 

[dbhokie]

I am not an expert, I fool around with remodeling my own house sometimes, and sometimes you have to do what you can with a situation. In your case, or your buddy's case I would test the circuit with a meter, see if there is a lot of variation in the load. Turn off the circuit and test for a short, then if it is a long run, you could take out the first outlet in the chain, replace it with a GFCI, and run a separate ground wire from it to a good grounding source.

 

[Jim C]

My bass and the keys can be mixed in without amps and the vocals can be heard without amplification. We can do this anywhere location-wise and I actually prefer it sonically for practice because it is low volume and we can easily hear everything.

This makes it sound like you guys are not using much power at all. If this makes the lights dim, then once could make the case that the garage has VERY inadequate power distribuiton and really should not be a source of electricity for your band.

Thanks for the kind words Gabe; got to think that pulling cable in the great white north is way harder than in a more temperate climate. Even just getting to the job or the supply house must be a pain.

 

[MuzikMan]

That low volume scenario I described above is an alternative to what we are currently doing.

 

[will33]

Thanks for the kind words Gabe; got to think that pulling cable in the great white north is way harder than in a more temperate climate. Even just getting to the job or the supply house must be a pain.

+1

Minnesota farm kid here. I remember helping my Dad fix equipment and stuff that couldn't be brought inside when it was -25. You work on it for a few minutes, then hold your hands over the tractor exhaust until you could feel them again, work another few minutes, repeat. Your hands are so numb and whatever you're working with is so stiff nothing wants to move. Just twisting 2 pieces of wire together takes a while......hence, I move south.


Edit: To keep it on topic, how far is the garage from the house/main ground. Is it possible to run cord from a "known to be good" circuit or 2 without ending up with a long run? Maybe a temporary solution. Matter of fact if the same guy wired the house as did the garage....forget that.