Does low AC power kill amps?

[billfitzmaurice]

Well, after talking to the drummer about our situation he suggested that we run two extension cables to two different circuits in the house.

Since he doesn't have an electrical device in his hands what's he got to lose? Nothing. You, OTOH: your life.
Find a different place to rehearse.

 

[SurferJoe46]

Running two extensions from different outlets opens a new bag of worms.

You have a 50:50 chance of having 240Volts in your play room.

IF one cable comes from the A-side of the dual bus and the other cable gets it's power from the other leg and the ground is suspect ( IT IS SUSPECT HERE!) you can conceivably have the A-leg and the B-leg on two different instruments.

VERY DANGEROUS!

It only takes two individual wires - one A and one B and you have the full pole drop voltage in the same room and it works without a ground because of the potential.

PAY ATTENTION HERE: YOU DO NOT NEED A THIRD WIRE OR A GROUND TO GET 240VOLTS BETWEEN ANY TWO INSTRUMENTS!

 

[Handyman]

Running two extensions from different outlets opens a new bag of worms.

You have a 50:50 chance of having 240Volts in your play room.

IF one cable comes from the A-side of the dual bus and the other cable gets it's power from the other leg and the ground is suspect ( IT IS SUSPECT HERE!) you can conceivably have the A-leg and the B-leg on two different instruments.

VERY DANGEROUS!

It only takes two individual wires - one A and one B and you have the full pole drop voltage in the same room and it works without a ground because of the potential.

PAY ATTENTION HERE: YOU DO NOT NEED A THIRD WIRE OR A GROUND TO GET 240VOLTS BETWEEN ANY TWO INSTRUMENTS!

Interesting. Do houses typically get wired up with different parts of each house on each phase of the 240V supply?

 

[SurferJoe46]

No 'phases' on 240 really - just two legs and YES - this is the way it's done all over the US.

From my previous post:

I was a biomedical engineer at a large LA hospital and all my wiring knowledge came from attaining to and engineering US/Federal Hospital Accreditation Standards that are far and exceeding the regular household wiring.

But good theory still needs the experience of knowing what's morally right, technically legal and just plain wrong.

Many people don't even know that a bathroom is supposed to be on it's own dedicated circuit.

Same's true of each and every motor in a house: dishwashers, disposals, trash compactors, microwaves, refrigerators and freezers are to NEVER share a circuit with any other appliances, wall receptacles or lighting. I see this rule broken all the time.

Even multiple bathrooms are to be on different sides (A or B) of the 240 legs.

People who don't know these things maim, burn and destroy more people, homes and buildings that one will even know.

Always test your supply for every gig and barn you play and never assume things are right.

That should be Rule #1.

Having two 120V legs is how you get 220/240 for your heavy appliances eg: clothes drier, AC or heat pump, pool pumps, etc.

 

[Jim C]

If the two source outlets are wired correctly with safety grounds (easy to check) running 2 quality extension cords or the right gaugeto the same space does not pose a problem regardless of a spilt buss or master main style panel.

If this were not true then one couldn't run 2 extension cords safely anywhere.
I agree that the whole set up sounds shakey but am trying to encourage those involved to try and work safely as opposed to doing nothing because it is too expensive or too much trouble.

It's pretty easy to quote the NEC book but I'm more interested in these knuckleheads being able to play music safely and truly believe that 2 proper branch circuits on the correct gauge reasonable length extension cords is a good temporary soultion; using those with a built in GFI is an even better plan. It would also meet code.

 

[SurferJoe46]

I've seen this same situation when in an older home, the woman in the kitchen pushed a toaster and an electric frying pan together and they blew holes into each other.

So do NOT minimize this situation which is tenuous at best and lethal at worst.

The place is suspect in the first place with Three Stooges Certified wiring and then you suggest it's prolly OK to run extension cords?

Who or whom are you working for? That borders on malfeasance or at least electrical ignorance.

 

[aborgman]

If the two source outlets are wired correctly with safety grounds (easy to check) running 2 quality extension cords or the right gaugeto the same space does not pose a problem regardless of a spilt buss or master main style panel.

If this were not true then one couldn't run 2 extension cords safely anywhere.
I agree that the whole set up sounds shakey but am trying to encourage those involved to try and work safely as opposed to doing nothing because it is too expensive or too much trouble.

It's pretty easy to quote the NEC book but I'm more interested in these knuckleheads being able to play music safely and truly believe that 2 proper branch circuits on the correct gauge reasonable length extension cords is a good temporary soultion; using those with a built in GFI is an even better plan. It would also meet code.

I've seen this same situation when in an older home, the woman in the kitchen pushed a toaster and an electric frying pan together and they blew holes into each other.

So do NOT minimize this situation which is tenuous at best and lethal at worst.

Ummm...

If the two source outlets are wired correctly with safety grounds (easy to check)

I wouldn't call that minimizing the situation.

It's easy to check, and if the outlets check out - it's safe.

Who or whom are you working for? That borders on malfeasance or at least electrical ignorance.

I've sure spent a lot of time working as an Electrical Engineer to be accused of "electrical ignorance"...

 

[stevemac]

Surferjoe,

I dont know if you are just messing with the folks here but I'd advise you stop giving electrical advice.

Heads up people.

 

[SurferJoe46]

Ummm...



I wouldn't call that minimizing the situation.

It's easy to check, and if the outlets check out - it's safe.




I've sure spent a lot of time working as an Electrical Engineer to be accused of "electrical ignorance"...

I say you are an assumptive braggart.

You are NOT there to lend your professional talents and test the system yourself, and yet you are cavalier enough to say it's OK to run extension cords?

Where did you get this education about which you have no field experience?

Be sure to send a notarized letter with your electrical license inspector's number and you address and address of your electrical contractor's bonding agent stating that the electrical system is OK and meets your esteemed certification standards and send that to the homeowner.

If you don't think that's a good idea, then back out and let someone local do the assumptions for you. Less death and lawsuits that way.

 

[aborgman]

I say you are an assumptive braggart.

You are NOT there to lend your professional talents and test the system yourself, and yet you are cavalier enough to say it's OK to run extension cords?

No.

I'm cavalier enough to say "if they test it using normal, inexpensive, and readily available test methods, and it tests ok - it's ok to run extension cords."

Where did you get this education about which you have no field experience?

I got my education at the University of Michigan College of Electrical Engineering and Computer Science.

Then I went on to get "no field experience" while

1) Doing high speed VLSI design at Intel for 6 years
2) being lead designer and Electrical Engineer for a precision metrology company (working with voltage from the uV range up to 3 phase 480V industrial equipment)
3) Working as Electrical Engineering adviser to a major research university Aerospace Engineering department, including work with multi-kilovolt power system for plasma/ion based thrusters for spacecraft.

...oh, and I've wired about a dozen houses and never failed an inspection.

Be sure to send a notarized letter with your electrical license inspector's number and you address and address of your electrical contractor's bonding agent stating that the electrical system is OK and meets your esteemed certification standards and send that to the homeowner.

If you don't think that's a good idea, then back out and let someone local do the assumptions for you. Less death and lawsuits that way.

Based on the work I've seen from a lot of electrical contractors - and the inspection quality I've seen from a lot of inspectors... I think if you think either of those things mean much, you're delusional.

 

[stevemac]

Aborgman, I'd say hes probably some guy stoned out of his mind and having some fun talking out his ass.... thats the impression I get.

So dont get too worked up man.

 

[billfitzmaurice]

If the two source outlets are wired correctly with safety grounds (easy to check) running 2 quality extension cords or the right gaugeto the same space does not pose a problem

Considering the garage situation I wouldn't go out on that limb.

 

[MuzikMan]

Ok guys, I really do appreciate what you are saying. I obviously don't have the expertise to determine if and when the wiring is acceptable so I am just going to play it safe and not rehearse in that garage. It is cool to know that there are concerned citizens out there. Thanks guys!

P.S. I hope that BS in Computer Science that I am half way to getting will rub the stupid out of me someday!

 

[JdoubleH]

MuzikMan, I am still tickled that you used the word 'kill' in the thread title and that your question was concerning the safety of the amps

 

[JdoubleH]

As for extension cords stretched from another building , even if the source outlets are wired and grounded correctly, you run into another risk, a ground loop. The fact that the ground potential at the house outlet is very likely different from the garage floor or any other ground in the garage will cause voltage on the ground wire. I've experienced it first hand. I got a pretty good zap once from a network panel that had copper runs to another building next door. There were no powered devices in either rack, just patch bays. I was surprised just how strong the jolt was. It is for that reason the IEEE 802.3 standard calls for fiber between buildings and even for risers between floors.

 

[Plstrns]

You know, rewiring a garage is less expensive than a rental over any length of time.

 

[Plstrns]

I've thought about this post.

I'd wire it myself, but you sound like it's a big deal for you and the others.

I just doubt seriously the wiring is sub 14 gauge, although the ground may be suspect.

Is the service from a pole, or from a house? Is the Garage detached? If from a house and detached, (you don't see a pole) I can almost promise the service is too small- probably 8 gauge, or even up to 4 gauge if the run is any distance is way too small. If the garage was added to the house, it could have as little as a 14 ga. single feed, single aluminum foil wrapped fuse in the 40 amp fuse box. If it where me, I'd find these facts and determine if repair or rental is better. I don't even know how old the house is.....

I'm not an electrician, but (My cousin Vinnie) my step father was, his father was.... I'm just a mechanic, the guy who services or fixes the band van.

 

[MuzikMan]

MuzikMan, I am still tickled that you used the word 'kill' in the thread title and that your question was concerning the safety of the amps

I played in that garage about 10 times a couple of years ago. The drummer seems to have done it many more times in the past. The thought of human safety never crossed my mind before posting on this board. Now that you guys have steered me in the right direction it seems so obvious.

 

[MuzikMan]

I've thought about this post.

I'd wire it myself, but you sound like it's a big deal for you and the others.

I just doubt seriously the wiring is sub 14 gauge, although the ground may be suspect.

Is the service from a pole, or from a house? Is the Garage detached? If from a house and detached, (you don't see a pole) I can almost promise the service is too small- probably 8 gauge, or even up to 4 gauge if the run is any distance is way too small. If the garage was added to the house, it could have as little as a 14 ga. single feed, single aluminum foil wrapped fuse in the 40 amp fuse box. If it where me, I'd find these facts and determine if repair or rental is better. I don't even know how old the house is.....

I'm not an electrician, but (My cousin Vinnie) my step father was, his father was.... I'm just a mechanic, the guy who services or fixes the band van.

Right now I think an electrician has to be brought in. The problem for me is that I am a broke college student. I have no job, I just found out I have melanoma (skin cancer) and I am about to undergo a series of operations so getting a job is impossible. I'm not even sure how I am going to pay my bills at this point much less help pay for an electrician. I am at the mercy of others right now.

 

[Electricblue]

Right now I think an electrician has to be brought in. The problem for me is that I am a broke college student. I have no job, I just found out I have melanoma (skin cancer) and I am about to undergo a series of operations so getting a job is impossible. I'm not even sure how I am going to pay my bills at this point much less help pay for an electrician. I am at the mercy of others right now.

I'm sorry to hear that buddy. I hope the ops go well for you.