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Does the power amp matter ?

#42
crispygoat said:
Hello,

This might be a stupid question but I thought I would still ask.

I am currently using a Line 6 PreAmp with a head and a cab. Since I am using the PreAmp, the controls and EQ on my head are disabled. I am now looking to upgrade my rig and was wondering if which power amp makes a different sound. I assume yes, but I'm not sure so I thought asking.

Thank You,
Click to expand...

Crispygoat,

The title of your post and the question within are not the same. As for the later, 'will different power amps sound different when all else is equal?', I'd say the answer is 'probably not'. As to the former question - the one in the title - 'does the power amp matter?', which I'll rephrase, 'are there differences between power amps that matter?', I'd say: yes!

Some differences are: reliability, warranty, customer service, size, weight, noise, price, appearance, resell value, types of input, types of output, filters, bridging, minimum (maximum) load, and more.
 
#43
alexclaber said:
Even if there is a difference when tested properly - which I doubt - the variation is still minuscule...
Click to expand...
Sorry to clip part of your comment Alex, but I want to highlight this. This is exactly what we're discussing in SS to SS amp comparions: a miniscule difference. Some won't hear it, some will hear it and won't care and a very small number will search high and low to get it. Perhaps it's similar in that regard to even versus odd-order harmonics, which audiophiles are known to discuss endlessly. Being in the latter camp that miniscule difference means something to my ears. "Gut feel" has absolutely nothing to do with it.

Your comment on variation in speakers is well-made considering the significant impact.
 
#44
oddio said:
Sorry to clip part of your comment Alex, but I want to highlight this. This is exactly what we're discussing in SS to SS amp comparions: a miniscule difference. Some won't hear it, some will hear it and won't care and a very small number will search high and low to get it. Perhaps it's similar in that regard to even versus odd-order harmonics, which audiophiles are known to discuss endlessly. Being in the latter camp that miniscule difference means something to my ears. "Gut feel" has absolutely nothing to do with it.

Your comment on variation in speakers is well-made considering the significant impact.
Click to expand...

A lot depends on how minuscule the differences are, too. IMHO, if those minuscule differences are large enough to be sonically detectable by anyone, then someone designed at least one of them a bit loosely, given the capabilities of the state of the art today. This threshold of audibility would certainly be greater than the couple hundred parts per million that good power amp designs can achieve in linearity and accuracy. I can't speak for all amplifier manufacturers, but fortunately we're not all at sea, having no idea what's supposed to come out of the amp's outputs when we put in a signal.
 
#45
I recently switched from a Crown Microtech 1200 to a Crest CA6 for my bass rig, and I noticed the difference. Not huge, like changing cabs, but it sure was there . And they are both top quality amps.

I also noticed changing the PA poweramp from the QSC USA900 to the Crown Microtech 1200. Again, I sure noticed the change.

I also remember changing amps from DC300's to PSA2's where I used to work, and again noticed.

All these examples are of my ear noticing when basically AB ing them. Sometimes minutes apart, sometimes days. However, I never got any of the other musicians in the band, or any fans at gigs, to say, ''man, what a great tone since you changed power amps''.
 
#46
Bob Lee (QSC) said:
Either can be designed and implemented well or poorly.
Click to expand...

I could be wrong, but some amps have filters that cut out the ultra low stuff, some have built in dsp these days, some have protection circuits that are really sensitive to dipping loads (i.e. stewart and lowb2 issue on the acme website). Those could be important, maybe not. Always worth it to figure out what the numbers mean and how the tech specs compare beyond RMS and ohms.

I will point out that an audiophile magazine took an boutique amp and used it as an arc welder. Not sure what that was supposed to prove, but it was a heavy sucker, I remember that. Those cats love the lead sleds, as far as I remember.

But they were not competing with police sirens, drunk waitresses, and a mostly deaf guitarist.

I have a Stewart 2.1 that is louder than the Hammer of Thor, or at least is too loud to turn up to 11. It has switching power supply I believe and I think it sounds great.
 
#47
yamaha said:
I recently switched from a Crown Microtech 1200 to a Crest CA6 for my bass rig, and I noticed the difference. Not huge, like changing cabs, but it sure was there . And they are both top quality amps.
Click to expand...

Not to nitpick, but you probably heard a difference because the Crown and the Crest are spec'd different. The different specs alone could explain the difference in sound or tone.

Crown Macro-Tech 1200:
  • 700W continuous @2 Ohm
  • 495W continuous @4 Ohm
  • 320W continuous @8 Ohm
  • 980W continuous @8 Ohms bridged mono

Crest CA6:
  • Power Rating 8 Ohm Stereo: 400 Watts
  • Power Rating 4 Ohm Stereo: 600 Watts
  • Power Rating 2 Ohm Stereo: 750 Watts
  • Power Rating 8 Ohm Bridge: 1200 Watts
  • Power Rating 4 Ohm Bridge: 1500 Watts

The Crown isn't even rated to perform at a 4 ohm bridged load according to manufacturer's specs.
 
#48
bassbrock said:
Not to nitpick, but you probably heard a difference because the Crown and the Crest are spec'd different. The different specs alone could explain the difference in sound or tone.

Crown Macro-Tech 1200:
  • 700W continuous @2 Ohm
  • 495W continuous @4 Ohm
  • 320W continuous @8 Ohm
  • 980W continuous @8 Ohms bridged mono

Crest CA6:
  • Power Rating 8 Ohm Stereo: 400 Watts
  • Power Rating 4 Ohm Stereo: 600 Watts
  • Power Rating 2 Ohm Stereo: 750 Watts
  • Power Rating 8 Ohm Bridge: 1200 Watts
  • Power Rating 4 Ohm Bridge: 1500 Watts

The Crown isn't even rated to perform at a 4 ohm bridged load according to manufacturer's specs.
Click to expand...

I may be wrong, but I think the MA-1200 was rated for bridged 4Ω use.
 
#49
7thbass said:
I will point out that an audiophile magazine took an boutique amp and used it as an arc welder. Not sure what that was supposed to prove, but it was a heavy sucker, I remember that. Those cats love the lead sleds, as far as I remember.
Click to expand...

You can get switching arc welders today. Same reasons: high efficiency, lightweight, just as reliable.

I wonder if they do blind testing. Put the welder unit behind a curtain and just let people weld some joints without actually seeing what the unit was? :-)
 
#52
bassbrock said:
Not to nitpick, but you probably heard a difference because the Crown and the Crest are spec'd different. The different specs alone could explain the difference in sound or tone.

Crown Macro-Tech 1200:
  • 700W continuous @2 Ohm
  • 495W continuous @4 Ohm
  • 320W continuous @8 Ohm
  • 980W continuous @8 Ohms bridged mono

Crest CA6:
  • Power Rating 8 Ohm Stereo: 400 Watts
  • Power Rating 4 Ohm Stereo: 600 Watts
  • Power Rating 2 Ohm Stereo: 750 Watts
  • Power Rating 8 Ohm Bridge: 1200 Watts
  • Power Rating 4 Ohm Bridge: 1500 Watts

The Crown isn't even rated to perform at a 4 ohm bridged load according to manufacturer's specs.
Click to expand...

I respect your opinion, but do not share it. I used to work for a company in Montreal called Solotech. Basically, the smaller Canadian equivalent to Clair Bros or Audio Analysts. I remember us doing many many tests on different power amps while I worked there, and AB ing a whole bunch of amps of similar ratings. We tried mostly Crowns, but also QSC's, Crests, Yamaha's, and others. Not only to our ears, but also on the real time analyzers, there were differences. Certainly not huge differences, but they were there. We also tested cables, signal wires, whatever you could think of, we tested them. It did not always give interesting results, but it was fun. Again, all this is IMO and IME. Oh, and a MA-1200 will do 4 ohms bridged without any problem, as Bob Lee said.
 
#53
yamaha said:
I respect your opinion, but do not share it. I used to work for a company in Montreal called Solotech. Basically, the smaller Canadian equivalent to Clair Bros or Audio Analysts. I remember us doing many many tests on different power amps while I worked there, and AB ing a whole bunch of amps of similar ratings. We tried mostly Crowns, but also QSC's, Crests, Yamaha's, and others. Not only to our ears, but also on the real time analyzers, there were differences. Certainly not huge differences, but they were there. We also tested cables, signal wires, whatever you could think of, we tested them. It did not always give interesting results, but it was fun. Again, all this is IMO and IME. Oh, and a MA-1200 will do 4 ohms bridged without any problem, as Bob Lee said.
Click to expand...

Thanks for clarifying that about the Macrotech's bridged capability.

How long ago was this test performed? And I'm assuming you applied appropriate gain matching on all these similar amps?
 
#54
yamaha said:
I recently switched from a Crown Microtech 1200 to a Crest CA6 for my bass rig, and I noticed the difference. Not huge, like changing cabs, but it sure was there . And they are both top quality amps.

I also noticed changing the PA poweramp from the QSC USA900 to the Crown Microtech 1200. Again, I sure noticed the change.

I also remember changing amps from DC300's to PSA2's where I used to work, and again noticed.

All these examples are of my ear noticing when basically AB ing them. Sometimes minutes apart, sometimes days. However, I never got any of the other musicians in the band, or any fans at gigs, to say, ''man, what a great tone since you changed power amps''.
Click to expand...
+1 This has been my experience over the years. When we would change out a power amp we would all notice a difference in the sound. When you live with a particular sound day in and day out you become very sensitive to any change that may occure. However, the audience won't even begin to notice the difference.
 
#55
I agree with the assessment that every component in the signal chain has an effect on the sound. The question is, how much effect does each component have? Some of the effects from changing components are expected to be practically negligible.

Taking the instrument out of the equation, speakers are probably the most obvious source of coloration. However, in my experience using different cables, changing a single op amp, or using different coupling capacitors in the amplification chain can all make a noticeable difference in the sound. Granted, most people probably wouldn't hear these differences at a gig; however, I have been able to reliably detect them.
 

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