What kind of music do you play with this group? I don't think there's any way I could ever convince any of the drummers I play with to go with an E-Kit.
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I play a self contained in ear system from time to time. To save my ears from worsening tinnitus I ALWAYS use in ears. And, I don't always have the cooperation of the band or the sound guy. I use a stage amp and a wide diaphragm mic at a minimum. Since I use a Pedalboard to get my sound I run 1 out to my amp and one to my personal mixer. Then, I take in a monitor feed if I can get one and put out my own large diaphragm mic out to catch the other onstage amps.
I'm going to have to start doing something like this. I assume you're not doing any singing? If you do, what do you use to get three ins with individual level control for each line?
Every where I play (except one) has in ear rigs - I just bring earbuds. The one exception, I just have to have an amp that'll keep up with an acoustic piano.
In general, I'm next to the drum kit, which I hear from the kit itself, attenuated by the fact that my ears are plugged. I then mix in myself and whatever else I need to balance my mix. Even without amps on stage, if I take my ears out, the spill from the PA is enough that it gets louder with my earbuds out.
Once you get the hang of it, it's the only way to fly. I can make one trip from my car to the stage with a bass, pedalboard, and a shoulder bag with cables and such, and be loaded in.
In general, I'm next to the drum kit, which I hear from the kit itself, attenuated by the fact that my ears are plugged. I then mix in myself and whatever else I need to balance my mix. Even without amps on stage, if I take my ears out, the spill from the PA is enough that it gets louder with my earbuds out.
Once you get the hang of it, it's the only way to fly. I can make one trip from my car to the stage with a bass, pedalboard, and a shoulder bag with cables and such, and be loaded in.
so electronic drums and zero stage volume?
still not a great idea but it sounds like it's not quite as bad as it would be otherwise.
I use IEMs regardless of what the rest of the band is doing. Here's my setup:
I always use an onstage amp/cab so I can keep track of the "feel." This may be unnecessary, but that's my preference. My bass signal goes out through a Rolls PM351 and then out to the amp. This gives me much better control of my own volume in my ear, and also balance it with my monitor feed out of the board. This then feeds into my wireless IEM system.
I even do it this way when there is no monitor feed, so I can hear myself regardless of what else is going on sound-wise. Of course, I can pop out the IEMs to check the onstage balance and levels.
I always use an onstage amp/cab so I can keep track of the "feel." This may be unnecessary, but that's my preference. My bass signal goes out through a Rolls PM351 and then out to the amp. This gives me much better control of my own volume in my ear, and also balance it with my monitor feed out of the board. This then feeds into my wireless IEM system.
I even do it this way when there is no monitor feed, so I can hear myself regardless of what else is going on sound-wise. Of course, I can pop out the IEMs to check the onstage balance and levels.
Great topic guys! Frequently, I must run sound and play bass. For my main PA rig, I have an X32 rack + some XLR patchbays (to move all the connections to the front) and an 8ch headphone amp that supports 2 stereo mixes plus has aux-ins on every headphone amp (so basically you can either switch between two stereo mixes that are independant of each other, or if I send a stereo output directly to the aux-in on the headphone amp, only that amp gets the mix). So I can have many different configs of mixes for IEMs. Mostly I use wired mixes since I don't move around much and they sound better. I run a wireless rig on my bass, so i still only have the one cable (IEMs).
This gives me the capability to easily walk into a venue and patch in (via split) to the FOH and do my own IEM mixes. Sometimes the venue will even patch my auxes into their monitor setup and I can run our monitors from the stage. With the X32 I can also patch in via a single CAT5 cable if the venue is using anything that supports AES50 and get a copy of what is present at the FOH.
Most of my bands don't use IEMs and I'm the only one using them. I do as some here have already suggested, which is set my IEM levels then run the first couple songs with them out so I can make sure the stage feel is ok. Then pop them in and mix from my ipad. Most of the time the vocal mics get enough ambience that I don't need a dedicated ambient mic on stage. If the venue (or me) is using overheads for drums, that helps too. Sometimes I take a RODE NT4 stereo XY mic and only run to my ears if I need it.
The beauty of this kind of setup is that once I get a tone / sound / setup of my vox and bass, I save that in a scene and its always there. I can just tweak the setup at the show to get my mix of the rest of the band.
The trick with IEMs is to spend some time with them while not under stress (ie not at the gig) and get familiar and dial things in. Getting comfortable with the setup makes it much easier to adapt. I know sometimes that will be difficult to do based on the venue, but just messing around with it will help you be more comfy in a real show environment.
The second that turns lots of folks off is the unexpected isolation when running IEMs. Some people feel isolated from the "feel" of the real environment. This is where the ambient mics help. You can blend in room sound so it doesn't feel like you are separated from the rest of the band.
I use my IEMs every chance I get, due to the protection for my ears, and also because I can get a great almost album quality mix and its consistent. The other plus with a digital setup such as mine, is with all the tools built into the software, I can get a near studio quality mix in my ears with good eq, compression, etc.
Hope this helps. Just sharing my particular setup.
Nate
This gives me the capability to easily walk into a venue and patch in (via split) to the FOH and do my own IEM mixes. Sometimes the venue will even patch my auxes into their monitor setup and I can run our monitors from the stage. With the X32 I can also patch in via a single CAT5 cable if the venue is using anything that supports AES50 and get a copy of what is present at the FOH.
Most of my bands don't use IEMs and I'm the only one using them. I do as some here have already suggested, which is set my IEM levels then run the first couple songs with them out so I can make sure the stage feel is ok. Then pop them in and mix from my ipad. Most of the time the vocal mics get enough ambience that I don't need a dedicated ambient mic on stage. If the venue (or me) is using overheads for drums, that helps too. Sometimes I take a RODE NT4 stereo XY mic and only run to my ears if I need it.
The beauty of this kind of setup is that once I get a tone / sound / setup of my vox and bass, I save that in a scene and its always there. I can just tweak the setup at the show to get my mix of the rest of the band.
The trick with IEMs is to spend some time with them while not under stress (ie not at the gig) and get familiar and dial things in. Getting comfortable with the setup makes it much easier to adapt. I know sometimes that will be difficult to do based on the venue, but just messing around with it will help you be more comfy in a real show environment.
The second that turns lots of folks off is the unexpected isolation when running IEMs. Some people feel isolated from the "feel" of the real environment. This is where the ambient mics help. You can blend in room sound so it doesn't feel like you are separated from the rest of the band.
I use my IEMs every chance I get, due to the protection for my ears, and also because I can get a great almost album quality mix and its consistent. The other plus with a digital setup such as mine, is with all the tools built into the software, I can get a near studio quality mix in my ears with good eq, compression, etc.
Hope this helps. Just sharing my particular setup.
Nate
I've been using IEM's for a couple of years now. In the band where I played bass, me and the drummer used them. In the other bands where I play keyboard, I'm the only one using them. For playing bass, I still had an amp on stage. Our PA and monitors were really not up to the task of carrying the whole room (I thought).
For playing keyboards, I've never had an amp on stage. The only real snag is bandmembers try to tell me stuff between or during songs, and they forget I can't read lips.
I'm not a hardcore IEM guy, if we're playing a festival or something with a different sound tech, I'll go without them. But if I'm playing the same old bar three feet away from a crash cymbal, you bet I'm going to protect my ears.
I bought the carvin IEM set and used the stock crappy earbuds for a couple years till they gave out. You don't have to break the bank to give it a try.
For playing keyboards, I've never had an amp on stage. The only real snag is bandmembers try to tell me stuff between or during songs, and they forget I can't read lips.
I'm not a hardcore IEM guy, if we're playing a festival or something with a different sound tech, I'll go without them. But if I'm playing the same old bar three feet away from a crash cymbal, you bet I'm going to protect my ears.
I bought the carvin IEM set and used the stock crappy earbuds for a couple years till they gave out. You don't have to break the bank to give it a try.
We took our band to a silent stage with v-drums, a sans amp bass DI and guitar modeling pedals. We use 6 behringer personal mixers and an xr18. For in-ears, we use mee sport-fi ear buds that cost $15 each. The upsides: Our main mix is drastically improved because we aren't fighting reflections from stage monitors and amps. Everyone hears what they want at a level they want to hear it. The stage is much cleaner and the load-out is easier. The downsides: interactions with the audience are more difficult, nobody has a direct rig they love as much as their tube amp or drum kit (even though no one else in the room can tell the difference), and you have to have a killer subwoofer near enough to the drummer and bassist to fill out the bottom end and help them "feel" the low-end frequencies. (The drummer could also use a butt kicker on his throne to solve that problem.) There are trade-offs, but the audience experience is far better.
Yea.. right on the money. I agree with everything you wrote. ( FWIW LOL ).
As for getting drummers to go electronic. Our drummer says his Rolands play close enough to acoustic drums to not be an issue. cymbals feel very different ( rubber vs metal ). If you play brushes/jazz, they won't work. But in a rock band, he says the cymbal feel is more than made up by the quality of sound, volume control, different sets, ease of set up/tear down. No question. I actually bought a Roland set TD10 with mesh heads for my boys and let him practice with them because his drums were too loud at practice and he hated moving them.. We played them a few small bars and after about a year of going back and forth, he sold his Tamas and bought an $8k Roland set and says he'll never go back. There are plenty of crappy sets, you get what you pay for with electronic drums, for sure.
The bars we play at say almost every show that we have the best volume control of ANY rock/dance band that they see. Our friends/sig others also say the band sounds better than ever and we say it's because of electronic drums, IEMS and going ampless.
That's part of it for sure. My church just got a TD50 kit and it's so much better than any that I've ever heard. The drummer says that the full size snare pad and 18 inch ride pad really help.
I use an IEM setup to protect myself from the drummer and the bass amp. I was using ear plugs, but I can hear the detail better with the IEMs. I am doing this at church where there is an extra mixer aux available. Thinking of ways I can do this in gig situations also...have some ideas but nothing tried yet.
I do have to set the bass amp volume without the IEMs in so that it is loud enough to thump everyone...don't want to be accused of week bass...
I do have to set the bass amp volume without the IEMs in so that it is loud enough to thump everyone...don't want to be accused of week bass...
I, too, started worrying about hearing loss after joining a loud blues band that likes to feel da bass. What's worked for me the last 3 years is a pair of etymotic music-pro 9-15s. Not cheap, but my hearing is everything. Once I got the hang of using them (how to insert, which tip to use) they've totally lived up to my expectations. Members of my two bands have noticed I use them all the time, and four other guys have each plunked down the $300 to try them. Three use them all the time. One just bought another pair because he uses them in his shop and while using equipment, and forgot he had them in when he took a shower. OOps. Three years ago, Etymotic had a 30 day return policy if you bought direct. Way easier to use than IEMs and mixes, and useful in other situations too.
I'm in the same situation where no one will invest in IEM's. The only way they will is if I buy them. Their all super old school in a detrimental way! Frustrating!
This, EXACTLY. Hell, I can't even get the guitarist in one of the bands to invest in a new multi-effects board for himself, even though he himself says his 20 year old one sounds like crap.
So I'm just gonna go ahead and start building my own IEM système (I just sent payment for the one in the classifieds) let them continue living in the past. Lol
wow! I had no idea this technology existed. For an earplug solution, this is pretty much top of the pops!
If the whole band were to switch to IEMs, they would hate you more because they definitely wouldn't "feel" you then. You are in a tough spot. Go with IEMs yourself. Spend your money on Shure earpieces. Don't bother with the custom molded type, unless money is no object. Your ears change over time and the molded earpieces loose their sealing capacity, which is a critical function. The Shure buds have replaceable and varying size foam seals that really really work. I use them and stand practically on top of my drummer - good seal.
Recently went to IEM's after suffering permanent(?) loss in my right ear from the guy next to me who seems to wind up on 11 or 13 towards the end of every gig with 135 dB JBL wedges(his) pointed at his knees. Drummer's cymbals are too close for comfort also. I'm the only one on ears for now.
At our "house gig" there is a digital board with great operators so I get FOH left/right, bass signal panned to 11 o'clock, and my vocal panned to 1 o'clock. Bass rig is Line 6 HD500X graduating to a Helix at the end of this month. A 3 space Gator bag carries:
Samson SM10 mixer(for when me to mix when FOH is not great OR we are on BOSE), Behringer SPL3220(brickwall limiter in case something upstream of my ears goes too loud), and a Mipro 909(stereo IEM). It is amazing driving home 90+ miles from Houston and NOT having ringing ears. No more amp although one usually is carried in case of total disaster(a Bugera BXD15, loud enough for stage use if you have FOH + IEM system complete failure & a backup at BOSE gigs).
For when we use BOSE, I'll run 1 ear out(my good left ear) for a song or 2 and then put it back in. For BOSE gigs, I sometimes get the task of mixing a house feed for the venue to use in their speakers all over the place. A small Behringer X2222USB handles that with part of the SM10 sub-mixing 3 drum mics(John Bonham recording 3 mics - YouTube ).
At our "house gig" there is a digital board with great operators so I get FOH left/right, bass signal panned to 11 o'clock, and my vocal panned to 1 o'clock. Bass rig is Line 6 HD500X graduating to a Helix at the end of this month. A 3 space Gator bag carries:
Samson SM10 mixer(for when me to mix when FOH is not great OR we are on BOSE), Behringer SPL3220(brickwall limiter in case something upstream of my ears goes too loud), and a Mipro 909(stereo IEM). It is amazing driving home 90+ miles from Houston and NOT having ringing ears. No more amp although one usually is carried in case of total disaster(a Bugera BXD15, loud enough for stage use if you have FOH + IEM system complete failure & a backup at BOSE gigs).
For when we use BOSE, I'll run 1 ear out(my good left ear) for a song or 2 and then put it back in. For BOSE gigs, I sometimes get the task of mixing a house feed for the venue to use in their speakers all over the place. A small Behringer X2222USB handles that with part of the SM10 sub-mixing 3 drum mics(John Bonham recording 3 mics - YouTube ).
With as inexpensive as it can be these days - wired anyway - there really is no excuse. Not telling people what to do but silent stage, IEM's is so much easier and safer. It helps the FOH mix and you hear exactly what you want or don't want to hear. If I never needed an amp again I'd be fine.
One question no one has asked as of yet is how much money is in your budget?
And this will lead to considerable load in time, getting everything set up, and load out time, not as much but it's still more gear to break down. In Chicago at the Metro and other venues when multiple bands are playing you get a set time, usually 1hr or 45 minutes. They allot you 5 minutes to set up and start playing, and 5 minutes to break down your gear, this is of course not the case if your a big band touring, but I assume your not a big band on tour-if I'm wrong excuse the error. So will you be able to add up to 20 minutes on your setup times for shows? You can of course break this down and do it in about 5 eventually, but it will depend on what gear you can buy!
For instance if your playing a venue that has Cat5 connection on stage then you can get a digital wireless mixer like a cheap Behringer one, as long as you have an Ipad, then run a the Cat5 cable to their cat5 equipped snake or whatever they have, and your good to go. You can just use the digital mixer to run your IEM's assuming that they have enough power to not need an external amp driving the drivers. But most of the time you'll need an external.
How good do you want your IEM's to be? Armature drivers are the best for IEM's but are considerably more money most of the time. Westone makes single driver Armature driver IEM's for about $150, and that's the cheapest I've seen that are not junk that you would probably throw in the street and run over with a semi 5 or 6 times, just for the satisfaction of having bought the junk in the first place.
Do you already have an Ipad you can use to mix with a wireless mixer? I can't begin to think how hard it would be to set this all up so you can actually hear everything, including yourself, save your hearing, and not take forever in setting it up without a digital wireless mixer.
If you don't have an Ipad(most can only use Apple not Android for some reason)you'd prolly have to get one of the QSC mixers. I mean there are other workarounds but I don't know how well you know your sound engineer gear?
But of course some of the cheaper ways cost more time in setting up, and can fail when you most definitely don't want them to. It's happened to me before in Chicago so thought I'd include that so you don't waste yourself more money in buying something that might take a dump on you at a show.
I can't remember if you said that you guys use house systems or bring your own mixer/soundguy?
I'm thinking that you use house systems, so if I was you I'd want to be able to set all this up with minimal fuss in about 5 minutes or less. Most house systems in my area do not have Cat5 equipped systems. Even the bigger 1000+ person venues. So that means you'd have to run a send out from the in house mixer to your mixer, or if you can set everything up to go to your mixer first and then send it out to the house mixer. If that's the case you need to have enough channels on your mixer for that. Of course you don't have to do all that but it's just one scenario that could happen if the venue has it setup all jacked up....it's happened to me before most of their mixer did not work and was not even an FOH mixer, it was a monitor mixer built just to run monitors. And it was all broken except 6 channels that ran fine(was a 30+channel board I think, don't know exactly as it was a while ago but it was a big board). No take all this with a grain of salt. I'm used to working with more high quality gear lately so doing things how I was taught and using gear that is expensive is what I know. Most likely there are cheaper ways, but I don't know how to do that. And TBH I work in studio's 99x out of 100 so there is that too.
