Does this mean Class D amps are in fact digital ?

[tshapiro]

This is nothing new. The trend in consumer electronics for at least forty years has been to replace entire circuit boards and subassemblies rather than do component level troubleshooting. This has two benefits, the first is no training of technicans is required and the second is that board swapping is faster.

My in-town TV/applicance shop (there's a dying breed) has been doing fixed labor rate repairs for decades. There's only two rates, minor repairs and major repairs and most of the difference is how complicated the disassembly is and how many subassemblies need to be swapped out.

Some devices are so inexpensive that repairs don't make sense. I remember going into a store during the "back to school" season and seeing a display of $2 pocket calculators. As an engineer, I was curious how they could be so cheap. While looking at one when I realized there was no battery compartment cover! For $2 why would you ever bother to change the batteries?

Even large, expensive devices may simply be replaced during warranty. Why have a local shop waste time trying to figure out what's wrong when it's easier to ship out a new unit by 2-day air, include a prepaid shipping label to return the defective unit and let factory techs fix it for resale as a refurb.

You’ve twisted the scenario from ‘throw away’ to ‘change circuit board’. I’m all about changing a circuit board. However, many of the shops that are registered to make that sort of repair take months to get you in. One such very large shop has a message that says they will get to my message within 30 days to schedule an appt. In close to a year they’ve yet to return any of the numerous messages left. Another very large vendor is happy to take on the repair themselves but has quoted 60 days min because of parts availability and backlog. Then, told me on top of shipping it’d be a minimum of $250. I only paid $600. Both of those pieces of gear still sit un-repaired in my closet - essentially trashed. If could make 1-4 phone calls, pay $150, and have a 30-day turnaround the gear would be fixed already.

 

[agedhorse]

You’ve twisted the scenario from ‘throw away’ to ‘change circuit board’. I’m all about changing a circuit board. However, many of the shops that are registered to make that sort of repair take months to get you in. One such very large shop has a message that says they will get to my message within 30 days to schedule an appt. In close to a year they’ve yet to return any of the numerous messages left. Another very large vendor is happy to take on the repair themselves but has quoted 60 days min because of parts availability and backlog. Then, told me on top of shipping it’d be a minimum of $250. I only paid $600. Both of those pieces of gear still sit un-repaired in my closet - essentially trashed. If could make 1-4 phone calls, pay $150, and have a 30-day turnaround the gear would be fixed already.

That’s certainly not the case repairing Mesa or Genz Benz or Genzler class D amps.

 

[seamonkey]

Learn About the Right to Repair — The Repair Association

 

[fdeck]

I've lost count the amount of times I've been told Sorry, its cheaper to throw it away and buy a new one.

The way to make an amp cheaper to repair is to raise the selling price.

I'm not being sarcastic. For better or worse, amp manufacturing, and amp repair, are governed by different economics. Regardless of the "repairability" of an amp, there's a price floor for amp repair based on the labor and overhead of the repair shop, and the labor cost of amp repair is probably influenced by the wages offered for repairing much more valuable gear such as medical equipment.

Of course it sucks when your amp breaks. I think it's easier to think about equipment maintenance on an industrial scale, where the costs of each repair are spread out over the overall cost of doing business. In that case, reliable but disposable is better than unreliable but repairable. The reason is that your repair costs go down much more quickly by focusing on up-front quality and reliability, so that repairs don't happen, or your equipment has a longer lifespan before disposal. When repairs do happen, your costs go down when the repairs happen more quickly, and involve less component level troubleshooting and improvisation. These things favor repairs being done at the module level, or by a factory service depot.

The pinnacle is reliable and repairable, but then you're probably looking at paying more up front. That's what I mean by raising the selling price. But there's irrepressible demand for cheaper and cheaper gear. If you demand that an amp should be cheaper than the "bench press" then it will be cheaper to replace than repair.

(The "bench press" is a term of art for the minimum that the tech charges just to lift your amp onto their workbench).

 

[pfschim]

once again, it has taken multiple pages (and a few funny replies) to answer this aged old question ....

NO!

 

[LiptonJigglers]

Then you are either talking to the wrong people or getting the wrong gear.

(Or both…..

Or in the wrong place. Still, where I live, they're disposable.
Conditions determine everything.

 

[LiptonJigglers]

The way to make an amp cheaper to repair is to raise the selling price.

I'm not being sarcastic. For better or worse, amp manufacturing, and amp repair, are governed by different economics. Regardless of the "repairability" of an amp, there's a price floor for amp repair based on the labor and overhead of the repair shop, and the labor cost of amp repair is probably influenced by the wages offered for repairing much more valuable gear such as medical equipment.

Of course it sucks when your amp breaks. I think it's easier to think about equipment maintenance on an industrial scale, where the costs of each repair are spread out over the overall cost of doing business. In that case, reliable but disposable is better than unreliable but repairable. The reason is that your repair costs go down much more quickly by focusing on up-front quality and reliability, so that repairs don't happen, or your equipment has a longer lifespan before disposal. When repairs do happen, your costs go down when the repairs happen more quickly, and involve less component level troubleshooting and improvisation. These things favor repairs being done at the module level, or by a factory service depot.

The pinnacle is reliable and repairable, but then you're probably looking at paying more up front. That's what I mean by raising the selling price. But there's irrepressible demand for cheaper and cheaper gear. If you demand that an amp should be cheaper than the "bench press" then it will be cheaper to replace than repair.

(The "bench press" is a term of art for the minimum that the tech charges just to lift your amp onto their workbench).

All the "pinnicals" in the world, set by all the businesses in the world, with all the best intentions in the world, mean a big fat diddleysquat when the amp dies and you can't get the item fixed anywhere any time at any price.
The cost is ultimately placed squarely on the shoulders of the user whilst the business laughs all the way to the bank.
None of what you say eliminates the Disposable aspect.

 

[fdeck]

All the "pinnicals" in the world, set by all the businesses in the world, with all the best intentions in the world, mean a big fat diddleysquat when the amp dies and you can't get the item fixed anywhere any time at any price.
The cost is ultimately placed squarely on the shoulders of the user whilst the business laughs all the way to the bank.
None of what you say eliminates the Disposable aspect.

Indeed, and I don't knowingly buy those amps.

 

[MarshallAC50Stack]

My EA micro550 has seen 13 years of maintenance free usage. That’s $46 and change per year and dropping. If it catastrophically fails I will drop it off at the electronic recyclers without complaint. I will miss it though, until it’s replacement is habituated into my life…probably within a couple of gigs.

 

[pfschim]

All the "pinnicals" in the world, set by all the businesses in the world, with all the best intentions in the world, mean a big fat diddleysquat when the amp dies and you can't get the item fixed anywhere any time at any price.
The cost is ultimately placed squarely on the shoulders of the user whilst the business laughs all the way to the bank.
None of what you say eliminates the Disposable aspect.

dude, there is a Jack LaLanne course you can buy from the back of bubble gum cards that will help you muscle up and the next time those nasty class D amps try to kick sand in your face on the beach in front of your girl friend, you can triumph over their obvious disposability and feel better about yourself. Try it.

and of course, no big iron amp ever broke down ever ... so there's that

geez, give it a rest

 

[Luther]

I've posted my cheat sheet a couple times before, and I'll post it again:
Class A: analog, must use analog speakers
Class B: butane-powered (careful around open flame!)
Class AB: analog wattage with butane ohmage, loads < 2 ohms are extremely flammable
Class C: covid-resistant, mask still recommended indoors
Class D: digital, must use digital speakers; divide wattage by two to get equivalent analog power; inferior sound when used with analog speakers
Class Q: quantum power, infinite wattage but if you run a load under 2 ohms you may produce a singularity (not recommended)

Don't forget the FC model invented by my friend, Doc, in 1985.

 

[tshapiro]

That’s certainly not the case repairing Mesa or Genz Benz or Genzler class D amps.

Totally agree, and I had that in my post. I don’t consider Mesa a ‘mass producer’ in terms that, in my area at least, I’m highly unlikely to find one at Guitar Center or Sam Ash. It’s those brands that you would typically find there, are built with materially lower quality, and are often throw away should they go down after the warranty expires because even during the warranty, getting service is often not worth the time, hassle, or is not practically available. Not familiar with the Genz stuff as I’ve never seen one in my area. But, if those stores were stocked with Mesa Class D heads I have a feeling the perception of Class D amps as throw aways would change. Never seen a Mesa head there either. But, I’ve bought Mesa gear in the used market which is how I became familiar with it.

 

[el murdoque]

While I am firmly in the "Pro Class D" camp and can't remember when something else made my bass audible (all the venues we play have class D poweramps, my own amp heads are class D), I can see good reasons for the "Class Disposable" argument.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but if you want to put upwards of 250 Watts into a bass amplifier and you're on a tight budget, then Class D will be the cheapest way to achieve that - I'd further wager that in the grand total, class D leads by a mile.

So if you're one of those less reputable companies that are in it for a quick profit, you will have embraced class D as the cheapest option around. Failure rates with those surely is less than comfortable and service surely is a bad thing, too. You can't build something at half the cost without sacrifices.


I'd further wager that when you look at reputable brands like Mesa, Aguilar, Bergantino etc. you will not only see less failure on the amps over time, you will also see that these are more likely to be repairable.

 

[ardgedee]

All the "pinnicals" in the world, set by all the businesses in the world, with all the best intentions in the world, mean a big fat diddleysquat when the amp dies and you can't get the item fixed anywhere any time at any price.
The cost is ultimately placed squarely on the shoulders of the user whilst the business laughs all the way to the bank.
None of what you say eliminates the Disposable aspect.

Being nostalgic about how much better it was when things weren't as disposable 50 years ago mostly glosses over how hard people had to struggle with low-end crap that needed frequent repair, and how happy their owners were to get rid of them once they could afford to. The good equipment with high uptime and were very repairable whether or not they needed it... that stuff was even more expensive then than they are now.

The amps from the 60s and 70s that survive were the ones that were worth repairing and didn't have to be in the shop all the time. The rest were tossed because they were bad rather than because their owners had GAS.

When accounting for inflation, most of what we consider classic equipment cost more than any new high-end, supported and repairable class-D head:

• MSRP for an Ampeg B-15N in 1964 was $355.00 in 1964 dollars, Invalid Link Removed to $3,494.02 now.
• Link Removed was $600 in 1970 dollars, roughly equivalent to $4,827.41 now.
• Invalid Link Removed was $539.50 in 1970 dollars, roughly equivalent to $4,398.83 now.

If you're going to compare a disposable GC special with anything, your basis of comparison should be the store brand bass amps of 50 years ago. If you can't name any without looking them up, it's because they were unloved and got thrown away.

 

[MarshallAC50Stack]

Checkmate!

Think about the thousands of dollars we spend on computers that work perfectly well excepting they become “obsolete.” Aargh!
That’s how I learned about electronics recycling.

 

[InkCow]

“Class D stands for disposable!” furiously typed into a $1000 phone with a designed date of obsolescence far closer than the average age of any Behringer Ultrabass listed on FB Marketplace.

 

[Doug4321]

My dad had a TV store back in the day, including doing repairs. Lots of equipment for that. Used to change out tubes, etc., oscilloscopes were in use. They also used to do house calls to change out tubes, but sometimes had to haul the set in for more in-depth repair.

Later, the repair department became less and less important.

The old TVs were more expensive but less reliable I expect, so more worthwhile to repair. Definitely we are in an age of disposable electronics, kind of too bad.

 

[Doug4321]

 

[Drredplate]

My dad had a TV store back in the day, including doing repairs. Lots of equipment for that. Used to change out tubes, etc., oscilloscopes were in use. They also used to do house calls to change out tubes, but sometimes had to haul the set in for more in-depth repair.

Later, the repair department became less and less important.

The old TVs were more expensive but less reliable I expect, so more worthwhile to repair. Definitely we are in an age of disposable electronics, kind of too bad.

we live in a disposable society these days. Not just electronics washing machines kitchens bathrooms as well etc. society has a thirst for ever increasing GDP which requires this.
It’s something we may have to re think at some point for the sake of the environment.

 

[ardgedee]

My dad had a TV store back in the day, including doing repairs. Lots of equipment for that. Used to change out tubes, etc., oscilloscopes were in use. They also used to do house calls to change out tubes, but sometimes had to haul the set in for more in-depth repair.

Later, the repair department became less and less important.

The old TVs were more expensive but less reliable I expect, so more worthwhile to repair. Definitely we are in an age of disposable electronics, kind of too bad.

My wife and I are currently reviewing our options for a new washer and dryer. Currently leaning towards an imported brand that's expensive (between 50% and 100% more than a competing product we could buy at a big box store) but has an expected minimum use life of at least 20 years and a well-stocked repair network. The standard warranty for laundry appliances from this company is 5 years, which itself is longer than the useful life of most popular brands of washers and dryers these days.

Repairability is an option for many items, but you have to have the means to afford the initial high cost of the equipment that can save you money later. We're not looking forward to this big expense but we are looking forward to not having to buy a new washer and dryer more or less every time there's a national election.