Dominoes Falling ?

[ezstep]

From what I have heard, Allman did the "one-take wonder" thingy with the recording. He had just finished a show and Clapton invited him over to the studio, and the rest, they say, is (musical) history.

 

[JimK]

On a tangent-
I cut the cord, I do have OTA TV.
Surfing, I hit on Get TV about 10pm last night...The Johnny Cash Show was on. Derek & The Dominos were a guest (no Duane, though).
2nd number, Cash & Carl Perkins sat-in on a 12-Bar Blues Rocker. Live playing. Pretty cool.

 

[MVE]

12 notes. That's all.

The Infinite Monkey Theorem, which itself seems to have been copied and passed through millennia, roughly claims that given an infinite span of time 100 monkeys with 100 typewriters would "produce" the works of Shakespeare. Point is that there is a very finite pool of notes and we put them in sequence to form melody. My dad used to say that all rock songs were copied patterns from classical (European) music. But the reality is the classical composers, and the composers before them, all copied to the beginning of humanity. Whether Clapton or someone within his sphere heard a Rita Coolidge song "ever" in their life prior to the recording of Layla seems pretty likely. Does that imply that Clapton stole it? That would be decided by wholly unqualified judges and jurors and lawyers. Did Rita Coolidge influence Layla? Maybe, probably.
But the real question is where did Rita Coolidge hear those notes? Because there is not a mathematical possibility that after a millennia of humans creating and sequencing sounds that this was the first time these few notes came together.

If this is about compensation, fine. Go after Clapton. If this is about fairness or "musical legitimacy" you're gonna need to go back at least 40,000 years. Or you could decide that Einstürzende Neubauten is the only original band. Or wait, maybe Blixa Bargeld had influences? Dang, maybe all musicians should just give up.

I understand the concept and logic of what you are saying, but its a very well documented fact that Jim Gordon ripped off the chord progression from a song his girlfriend wrote.
Clapton had nothing to do with it.
But in a twist of irony Jim Gordon won a Grammy from jail for co-writing Layla after the Unplugged version that didn’t even use the Cods became so popular. And he remains today, one of the wealthiest people in the California penal system.

 

[Killing Floor]

No doubt. My question is where did she get it? There's not a chord progression with fewer than 60 notes that hasn't been repeated at least a dozen times this year. This comes up all the time. And people steal the work of other artists shamelessly and that isn't OK. But it's also not OK to get into the gravel about someone probably lifted a pretty uncomplicated riff 50 years ago. I'm saying in principle you're right, should not rip people off. But also in principle there's not a riff that you or I could write that hasn't been written and copywritten.
So where do we go from here? Give up altogether or assume some likelihood that one of your or my songs sounds maybe kinda sorta like someone else' song?

And just to reiterate, as cool and smart as Coolidge is, there is no mathematical possibility that she didn't hear those notes in her life somewhere. Not because she stole it, but because that's how our brains process music, whether we like it or not. So where wo we go and where does it end up?

 

[Mannyinnewyork]

No doubt. My question is where did she get it? There's not a chord progression with fewer than 60 notes that hasn't been repeated at least a dozen times this year. This comes up all the time. And people steal the work of other artists shamelessly and that isn't OK. But it's also not OK to get into the gravel about someone probably lifted a pretty uncomplicated riff 50 years ago. I'm saying in principle you're right, should not rip people off. But also in principle there's not a riff that you or I could write that hasn't been written and copywritten.
So where do we go from here? Give up altogether or assume some likelihood that one of your or my songs sounds maybe kinda sorta like someone else' song?

And just to reiterate, as cool and smart as Coolidge is, there is no mathematical possibility that she didn't hear those notes in her life somewhere. Not because she stole it, but because that's how our brains process music, whether we like it or not. So where wo we go and where does it end up?

I understand what you’re saying, but my feeling is this - if there is nothing truly creative and or wonderful about writing something that appeals to the masses (but only appears to be “new” based on what you’re saying) , then why don’t you do it? Make big bucks or get a Grammy for simply rewriting something you’ve heard before?

I think your attitude really diminishes the work of some really great songwriters . Jim Webb, Burt Bacharach, Brian Wilson (these are just personal favorites).

 

[MVE]

Plus....
You have to feed the monkeys, provide monkey cages, pay zoo keepers and veterinarians to take care of the monkeys, repair the typewriters that the monkeys will almost certainly damage and break, because...they’re monkeys.
There’s a whole bunch of logistics people never bother to factor in whenever they present the ol’ million monkeys adage.

 

[Killing Floor]

I hear ya. Let's get along better. I think your examples are brilliant writers.

I think from a legal perspective this kind of thing could get out of hand, I hope it doesn't. And FWIW my attitude is that I have been enamored with musical composers and story tellers for my whole life. I find enormous value in creativity. I also know sometimes people do get ripped off and sometimes people sign things they shouldn't sign and sometimes people recognize things they've created or influenced in the work of others years later. In this case Rita probably got robbed. But there's a line we probably don't want to cross as musicians. Think of any star naming their influences. Now listen for hints of that influence. Every lick of The Beatles was possible because of every lick of Elvis Pressley was possible because of every lick of Arthur Crudup and Ivory Joe Hunter and Fats Domino (and others) was possible because of doowop and blues and and Western and so on. Just saying the industry needs to dial back litigation just a hair because there's only 12 notes in our western system of music.

 

[Mannyinnewyork]

I hear ya. Let's get along better. I think your examples are brilliant writers.

I think from a legal perspective this kind of thing could get out of hand, I hope it doesn't. And FWIW my attitude is that I have been enamored with musical composers and story tellers for my whole life. I find enormous value in creativity. I also know sometimes people do get ripped off and sometimes people sign things they shouldn't sign and sometimes people recognize things they've created or influenced in the work of others years later. In this case Rita probably got robbed. But there's a line we probably don't want to cross as musicians. Think of any star naming their influences. Now listen for hints of that influence. Every lick of The Beatles was possible because of every lick of Elvis Pressley was possible because of every lick of Arthur Crudup and Ivory Joe Hunter and Fats Domino (and others) was possible because of doowop and blues and and Western and so on. Just saying the industry needs to dial back litigation just a hair because there's only 12 notes in our western system of music.

We’re good. No animosity intended, I’ve always been in awe of those that have written the songs that made my life better.