Don't Use Charts on The Gig

[Joe Nerve]

So being prepared is the real issue, not how you get there.

Yes. And no. Being prepared for the gig is essential. For me, that means knowing the material and not having to take out notes, charts, etc.

Feel like I dragged myself into an argument in this thread that I really didn't intend to. My responses are in regard to the pop rock gigs mentioned in the OP. And there are always exceptions. Of course if I were given 3 days to learn 100 tunes I was unfamiliar with, I'd have to use charts. But I pride myself on knowing my material upside down and inside out, and put a lot of time into my private practice sessions. I do my homework. Agreed just a few weeks ago to do a fill in gig for a pop 80s band where I had to learn 75 songs (over 50 of which I never played). I started putting the work in before I even got confirmation for the gig. Gig didn't pan out, never even met with the guys, but the time I put in I don't consider lost time. I now have a bunch of mp3s in my song bank if needed for another gig, know about 10 new tunes, and am a lot closer to knowing all those tunes should I ever need to learn/play any of them again. Which I'm nearly certain I will one day. And none of that was wasted time for me because, well, first - I love playing bass , and 2nd, I consider it all just honing my skills. Not to mention sharpening my memory. As with chart reading, the more you do it the easier it gets.

What if on those two days prior to the AC/DC gig real life stuff also happens? You mat not have a full two days during a two day period. You may not have the luxury of dropping everything to focus just on that gig.

This is a sticky one for me, and something that gets me in trouble at times with other band members. Thankfully, I've been playing with people a bit more responsible lately. What is considered "real life stuff?" Real life stuff getting in the way to me means serious family emergencies, only. And they're incredibly rare. Other people define real life stuff differently - had to go to the in-laws or the wife would give me hell, my day job needed me overtime, was my friends birthday on friday and I had to go, and so on and so forth. Last year I worked a day AND an evening job (4 nights a week in the evenings), stayed committed to the gym (which is near the top of my priority list), did volunteer work that I do, maintained a healthy happy relationship with my wife, and managed to play in about 5 different bands throughout the year. Took care of all my other responsibilities too. RE the AC/DC gig - nothing short of a tragedy would get me away from my bass if I were offered the bass spot in ACDC. Or any other band at that level. I would drop everything and just focus on the gig. And of course if for some reason I had to, I'd go in with charts. I'm certain my chances of landing the gig would be much greater without them though.

 

[Brad Johnson]

Yes. And no. Being prepared for the gig is essential. For me, that means knowing the material and not having to take out notes, charts, etc.

Feel like I dragged myself into an argument in this thread that I really didn't intend to. My responses are in regard to the pop rock gigs mentioned in the OP. And there are always exceptions. Of course if I were given 3 days to learn 100 tunes I was unfamiliar with, I'd have to use charts. But I pride myself on knowing my material upside down and inside out, and put a lot of time into my private practice sessions. I do my homework. Agreed just a few weeks ago to do a fill in gig for a pop 80s band where I had to learn 75 songs (over 50 of which I never played). I started putting the work in before I even got confirmation for the gig. Gig didn't pan out, never even met with the guys, but the time I put in I don't consider lost time. I now have a bunch of mp3s in my song bank if needed for another gig, know about 10 new tunes, and am a lot closer to knowing all those tunes should I ever need to learn/play any of them again. Which I'm nearly certain I will one day. And none of that was wasted time for me because, well, first - I love playing bass , and 2nd, I consider it all just honing my skills. Not to mention sharpening my memory. As with chart reading, the more you do it the easier it gets.



This is a sticky one for me, and something that gets me in trouble at times with other band members. Thankfully, I've been playing with people a bit more responsible lately. What is considered "real life stuff?" Real life stuff getting in the way to me means serious family emergencies, only. And they're incredibly rare. Other people define real life stuff differently - had to go to the in-laws or the wife would give me hell, my day job needed me overtime, was my friends birthday on friday and I had to go, and so on and so forth. Last year I worked a day AND an evening job (4 nights a week in the evenings), stayed committed to the gym (which is near the top of my priority list), did volunteer work that I do, maintained a healthy happy relationship with my wife, and managed to play in about 5 different bands throughout the year. Took care of all my other responsibilities too. RE the AC/DC gig - nothing short of a tragedy would get me away from my bass if I were offered the bass spot in ACDC. Or any other band at that level. I would drop everything and just focus on the gig. And of course if for some reason I had to, I'd go in with charts. I'm certain my chances of landing the gig would be much greater without them though.

While you see this as an argument, I see it as a conversation. You have your POV, I have mine. Neither of us is telling the other they are wrong.

Real life stuff could be shortened to the saying " ---- happens". So that covers any ---- that might happen. In my case I know that despite my best intentions there are some things I can't turn a blind eye to... and that can impact my plans. Doesn't matter who might call me. And I've had to turn down bigger last minute opportunities because of already made commitments I couldn't get out of without screwing up another job. But that is me and how I handle my business. Not a criticism of anyone else. Because I do appear to be the exception businesswise and other bassists do what they do, my phone keeps ringing and I don't burn bridges.

 

[MultiScaleMale]

I use charts on the iPad and I'm fine with it. I don't glue my eyes to the charts, but they're there. I'm not trying to be a pro bassist - ACDC will never call. But I'm also in a unique situation where we will do songs one time, so there is little incentive to memorize. In other cases I'll memorize. It's all in what the situation requires. If it requires memorizing 50 songs for a three hour gig that I'm going to do once. No thanks. If it's 50 songs that we're going to do regularly, no problem.

 

[lfmn16]

Ya, you definitely have to read the situation, and I get the idea of bandleaders not wanting anyone reading charts. AC/DC would look quite doofy reading charts onstage, for example.

I'm sorry, are you trying to say that there isn't a 'one size fits all' solution???? Come on, this is Talkbass. What works for me MUST work for you!

Some people just like to argue.

 

[Fat Steve]

Some people just like to argue.

No we don't.

 

[Joe Nerve]

Should note that argument was a poor word choice on my part. I do feel this to be a discussion, no adrenaline coming from my end.

But that's probably because I know I'm right, and the rest of yas are all wrong .

I'm kidding, I'm kidding. Just talkin bass and a little bit of sheeit, yo!

 

[lfmn16]

No we don't.

Yes you do! Time for a rage quit!!!

 

[jerry]

As with every situation, whatever the gig calls for.

 

[P. Aaron]

I really appreciate the replies from you working guys who have ALL the tools. That is what I am personally working towards. I have to realize too that a good reader or chart person can also transform the Weekend Warrior musician many rock purists disdain into a competent player who's instrument stays dusty Sunday-Thursday. Another lesson learned.

I am working my way through Burt Bacharach-Herb Alpert era music and since there's very little bass notation of this stuff, it is tedious work to get the lines note for note. I have emailed, called & written companies looking for notation, I'd learn these quicker with the music...even though I am still a marginal reader. I thank my late teacher Dan Pliskow for those tools.

Those guys in the thread (where all this started) aren't letting up. I wasn't even being critical there, it simply prompted the question; if you have a fixed set, adding new tunes occasionally, do you really need your notes months later?

In Young Country and much of POP music right now, I can hear a song on the radio and hear if it's a 1-5-2-3, or a 7-4-1-2, 1-4-5-6 etc., and if all I have to ask (or figure out) is "what key" it's in, I'm most of the way there...that is also what I work to learn.

The hardest thing to figure out? TAB

 

[fdeck]

Just to point out (as P Aaron himself did a couple pages back) that the OP was not about jazz gigs, or classical, or broadway pits, or bands with 400-song repertoires to pick from and no set list established before the gig. He was talking about the simpler, "oral" genres and bands with fixed set lists. Obviously, the more complex the music, or the more of it there is, the more useful a chart becomes. Obviously, the more skilled a reader you are, the more readily you can groove on the fly as you play from a chart.

But not everybody is a pro. Different people are at different skill levels, and as far as I'm concerned that's a good thing. I would hate to say to someone they can't go play music because they're not tippy-top pro-level musicians. And I think there's something to be said for some people, at some gigs, to get away from a chart and be more free.

That's all fine, but if a Rule needs that many qualifiers to remain valid, then maybe we

Ya, you definitely have to read the situation, and I get the idea of bandleaders not wanting anyone reading charts. AC/DC would look quite doofy reading charts onstage, for example.

I think you could probably nail AC/DC without charts. I went to one of their concerts, long ago. The bassist looked doofy anyway, pretty much standing in one spot and playing roots.

 

[fdeck]

I wasn't even being critical there, it simply prompted the question; if you have a fixed set, adding new tunes occasionally, do you really need your notes months later?

Speaking for myself, the answer is no. It typically takes me a couple of gigs to learn a band's repertoire, if it isn't super complex.

The hardest thing to figure out? TAB

I've never heard of anybody sight-reading tab.

 

[P. Aaron]

Speaking for myself, the answer is no. It typically takes me a couple of gigs to learn a band's repertoire, if it isn't super complex.

I've never heard of anybody sight-reading tab.

I was really speaking of TAB in general...for me. I have had, in the past band mates show up with TAB trying to work through it. It's the main reason I started learning to read and learn to interpret charts...to get away from limping musicians.

 

[P. Aaron]

I think you could probably nail AC/DC without charts. I went to one of their concerts, long ago. The bassist looked doofy anyway, pretty much standing in one spot and playing roots.

Lotta bread in those root notes...at least in AC/DC's case.

 

[Brad Johnson]

I really appreciate the replies from you working guys who have ALL the tools. That is what I am personally working towards. I have to realize too that a good reader or chart person can also transform the Weekend Warrior musician many rock purists disdain into a competent player who's instrument stays dusty Sunday-Thursday. Another lesson learned.

I am working my way through Burt Bacharach-Herb Alpert era music and since there's very little bass notation of this stuff, it is tedious work to get the lines note for note. I have emailed, called & written companies looking for notation, I'd learn these quicker with the music...even though I am still a marginal reader. I thank my late teacher Dan Pliskow for those tools.

Those guys in the thread (where all this started) aren't letting up. I wasn't even being critical there, it simply prompted the question; if you have a fixed set, adding new tunes occasionally, do you really need your notes months later?

In Young Country and much of POP music right now, I can hear a song on the radio and hear if it's a 1-5-2-3, or a 7-4-1-2, 1-4-5-6 etc., and if all I have to ask (or figure out) is "what key" it's in, I'm most of the way there...that is also what I work to learn.

The hardest thing to figure out? TAB

I agree with you... if you have a fixed set and play it on a regular basis, at some point it should stick. And some gigs probably do look better without visible charts.

On the Tonight Show the Roots often back a guest artist. I've noticed their bassist sometimes uses what are probably charts on the floor. Do anyone other than musicians notice? Beats me. He gets through the performances well and in this case "he" is not the focal point. So like many things in life... "it depends" is likely the most accurate answer.

Burt Bacharach wrote some very unusual stuff, both in chord progressions and timing, for Pop. I know most of his music so if you need help let me know. Not trying to sidetrack your notation skills arc, the number system and some slow downer program can make it pretty easy to come up with an accurate chart. And you could then do the songs in any key.

 

[JimmyM]

I think you could probably nail AC/DC without charts. I went to one of their concerts, long ago. The bassist looked doofy anyway, pretty much standing in one spot and playing roots.

I'll tell you this about that, though, F...I have heard many really great bassists try and fail when it comes to playing AC/DC. Jazz guys are especially cringe-worthy, but even many rock bassists who excel at all other types of rock will stumble when playing AC/DC. Cliff Williams hits every single note dead-on where it's supposed to be hit, no matter the tempo. He never rushes, he never slows down, and rare is the time when you'll hear him clam a note. He will also play one two-bar riff over and over for 10 minutes if needed, and every note will be perfectly on the money and he'll never improvise. I'd like to see 95% of Talkbass do that

Also, he and Malcolm Young have the coolest move in history for background singers...they stand in back by the drums till time to sing, then they run up to the mic and sing, then go right back to the back of the stage. It does not get any cooler than that.

 

[Joe Nerve]

So can I tell my ACDC concert story! Please.... OK....

So I was about 18 or 19, and my friend got us the tickets. There were about 7 of us going. All the seats were together except for 2 which were in another section (and not as good). I had an argument with him before the concert, so to get back at me he put me in the crappier seats with some girl he didn't know who he sold the other ticket to. I haven't touched a drink or drug in 30 years (disclaimer) but, well... this girl had a bunch of coke on her, and she was hot. I will never admit to doing anything illegal online , but I had one of the absolute greatest nights of my teenage life. And we went out with each other for about 6 months after that.

ACDC is great!

 

[fdeck]

I'll tell you this about that, though, F...I have heard many really great bassists try and fail when it comes to playing AC/DC. Jazz guys are especially cringe-worthy, but even many rock bassists who excel at all other types of rock will stumble when playing AC/DC. Cliff Williams hits every single note dead-on where it's supposed to be hit, no matter the tempo. He never rushes, he never slows down, and rare is the time when you'll hear him clam a note. He will also play one two-bar riff over and over for 10 minutes if needed, and every note will be perfectly on the money and he'll never improvise. I'd like to see 95% of Talkbass do that

Also, he and Malcolm Young have the coolest move in history for background singers...they stand in back by the drums till time to sing, then they run up to the mic and sing, then go right back to the back of the stage. It does not get any cooler than that.

True... a fellow bassist heard a demo that I had helped record for a rock band, and he told me I'd never be a good rock bassist, because I don't have the attention span for it. I can't get through a chorus playing the same riff. I do have respect for rock bassists, even if it's convenient to claim that it seems easy.

 

[P. Aaron]

True... a fellow bassist heard a demo that I had helped record for a rock band, and he told me I'd never be a good rock bassist, because I don't have the attention span for it. I can't get through a chorus playing the same riff. I do have respect for rock bassists, even if it's convenient to claim that it seems easy.

I think the 1000's of threads here from these many years are proof positive that none of these musical genres are easy. They all require a developed skill set and while some are gifted at many, most have to work, work, work at it. No matter how simple a song or passage seems to be.

 

[Howlin' Hanson]

When I first saw the thread title, I was predicting that someone was gonna say: "This is AMERICA--DON'T TELL ME WHAT TO DO!"

Instead, we get opinions rather than outrage. Go figure.

 

[Baird6869]

I am getting sick of watching rock cover bands that have played the same 30-40 songs for years use visible cheat sheets, music stands and iPads. They are generally only security blankets but I can almost guarantee the players barely look at or engage the crowd.

I personally only have a set list on the ground by my mic. Very rarely will I have a chart or cheat note. If I do, it is just a few root notes or key signatures on my set list for one or two new songs if I have any concerns at all that I may have a brain fart.

To each their own, but to watch a 4 piece classic rock cover band play a $300-400 gig in front of 10 people and the singer has an IPad and everyone else has a music stand drives me personally nuts.